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Blutto
World Cup Star
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 424
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 Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Two wins against a weak Argentina would have been a good result.
One win and one loss was disappointing, particularly when our WC seeding depended on getting two wins. The fact that Italy beat them shortly afterwards puts our results in context.
We have the players, we just don't pick them. Hadden and the coward must go. |
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Jon
World Cup Star
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 1075
Location: Balerno
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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djphilp you say that the tour was not a success, but on a thread not too far from this one you said:
| Quote: | All in all a disappointing selection by Hadden, and by the looks of things Hadden alone. I hope that they go out and prove me wrong forcing me to eat several humble pies, but I just can't see where the attacking panache is going to come from.
There are too many weak links...
Frank you are the weakest link...
Goodbye |
Certainly nothing about how we should thumo them because they are a bunch of amateurs?? |
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djphilp
World Cup Star
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 3106
Location: Too Far South
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon wrote: | djphilp you say that the tour was not a success, but on a thread not too far from this one you said:
| Quote: | All in all a disappointing selection by Hadden, and by the looks of things Hadden alone. I hope that they go out and prove me wrong forcing me to eat several humble pies, but I just can't see where the attacking panache is going to come from.
There are too many weak links...
Frank you are the weakest link...
Goodbye |
Certainly nothing about how we should thumo them because they are a bunch of amateurs?? |
Sorry Jon I am missing your point obviously. My point has always been that Hadden cannot, or perhaps will not, select our best team and if he did so then we would have a better chance to perform to our full capabilities and win all the games that we should win. Such as games against amateurs.
I also don't think I said anywhere that we should thump the Argentinian amateurs. I just said we should have beaten them in both games, and that seeing as we didn't then the tour should not be seen as the outstanding success that the SRU hierarchy would have us believe. |
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Jon
World Cup Star
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 1075
Location: Balerno
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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The tour was a success for the following reasons:
1. we beat a nation above us in the rankings (only usually seem to do that at home against England nowadays)
2. we won away from home (only usually do that against.... oh no we don't).... and whoever the opposition (ask Wales, Ireland and France) Argentina very rarely lose at home.
3. Hadden brought in a playmaker (for whatever reason) instead of his beloved Parks
Yes we losty the first game which we should have probably won, and we should have beaten them by more but I think these are enough of a reason to regard the tour as a success? In terms of amateurs v pros, the cap count is similar to clashed in the 6N. As far as the French Top 14 we were missing Taylor, Murray, Cussiter, (?) Rennie.... and DiRollo (  ). We were also missing Hamilton, Lamont and Lamont. Yes there were more players who are not full time players playing but if you have read anything about the Argentinian League you will see that they probably train as much as many of our guys (but fit in jobs as well). |
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djphilp
World Cup Star
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 3106
Location: Too Far South
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon wrote: | The tour was a success for the following reasons:
1. we beat a nation above us in the rankings (only usually seem to do that at home against England nowadays)
2. we won away from home (only usually do that against.... oh no we don't).... and whoever the opposition (ask Wales, Ireland and France) Argentina very rarely lose at home.
3. Hadden brought in a playmaker (for whatever reason) instead of his beloved Parks
Yes we losty the first game which we should have probably won, and we should have beaten them by more but I think these are enough of a reason to regard the tour as a success? In terms of amateurs v pros, the cap count is similar to clashed in the 6N. As far as the French Top 14 we were missing Taylor, Murray, Cussiter, (?) Rennie.... and DiRollo ( ). We were also missing Hamilton, Lamont and Lamont. Yes there were more players who are not full time players playing but if you have read anything about the Argentinian League you will see that they probably train as much as many of our guys (but fit in jobs as well). |
Sorry Jon but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see the tour as a success as a whole. As with almost any tour their were positives to be taken from it, but I still think that the way the SRU have lauded it a success is incorrect and there were more substantial negatives such as the poor selection process for the first test and to a lesser extent the second.
Anyway all I hope now is that Hadden allows the coaches he has employed to take credit/blame where and when it is due and that he also listens to them when they advise regarding selection, because neither are traits he has demonstrated in the past. |
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jrp
World Cup Star
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 544
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| djphilp wrote: | | Jon wrote: | The tour was a success for the following reasons:
1. we beat a nation above us in the rankings (only usually seem to do that at home against England nowadays)
2. we won away from home (only usually do that against.... oh no we don't).... and whoever the opposition (ask Wales, Ireland and France) Argentina very rarely lose at home.
3. Hadden brought in a playmaker (for whatever reason) instead of his beloved Parks
Yes we losty the first game which we should have probably won, and we should have beaten them by more but I think these are enough of a reason to regard the tour as a success? In terms of amateurs v pros, the cap count is similar to clashed in the 6N. As far as the French Top 14 we were missing Taylor, Murray, Cussiter, (?) Rennie.... and DiRollo ( ). We were also missing Hamilton, Lamont and Lamont. Yes there were more players who are not full time players playing but if you have read anything about the Argentinian League you will see that they probably train as much as many of our guys (but fit in jobs as well). |
Sorry Jon but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see the tour as a success as a whole. As with almost any tour their were positives to be taken from it, but I still think that the way the SRU have lauded it a success is incorrect and there were more substantial negatives such as the poor selection process for the first test and to a lesser extent the second.
Anyway all I hope now is that Hadden allows the coaches he has employed to take credit/blame where and when it is due and that he also listens to them when they advise regarding selection, because neither are traits he has demonstrated in the past. |
What was the poor selection in the 2nd test? |
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Oldsalt
World Cup Star
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Fife
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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The mistake in the second test was to change so many players in such a short time near the end. This to me disrupted the concentration of the team and as such is purely the coaches decision. Were the substitutions really required, if the Argentinian score had been prevented at the end we would have beaten Argentina by 15pts and this would have achieved the rise in the rankings I think.
Coaching mistake again. Agree with DJ that the team selected in the first test was not our best - as usual. What is the betting that the team that a number of us would like to see will not be the one that is selected for the AI's, nothing changes!  |
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djphilp
World Cup Star
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 3106
Location: Too Far South
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| jrp wrote: | | djphilp wrote: | | Jon wrote: | The tour was a success for the following reasons:
1. we beat a nation above us in the rankings (only usually seem to do that at home against England nowadays)
2. we won away from home (only usually do that against.... oh no we don't).... and whoever the opposition (ask Wales, Ireland and France) Argentina very rarely lose at home.
3. Hadden brought in a playmaker (for whatever reason) instead of his beloved Parks
Yes we losty the first game which we should have probably won, and we should have beaten them by more but I think these are enough of a reason to regard the tour as a success? In terms of amateurs v pros, the cap count is similar to clashed in the 6N. As far as the French Top 14 we were missing Taylor, Murray, Cussiter, (?) Rennie.... and DiRollo ( ). We were also missing Hamilton, Lamont and Lamont. Yes there were more players who are not full time players playing but if you have read anything about the Argentinian League you will see that they probably train as much as many of our guys (but fit in jobs as well). |
Sorry Jon but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see the tour as a success as a whole. As with almost any tour their were positives to be taken from it, but I still think that the way the SRU have lauded it a success is incorrect and there were more substantial negatives such as the poor selection process for the first test and to a lesser extent the second.
Anyway all I hope now is that Hadden allows the coaches he has employed to take credit/blame where and when it is due and that he also listens to them when they advise regarding selection, because neither are traits he has demonstrated in the past. |
What was the poor selection in the 2nd test? |
I'd direct you to my post on the other thread that was alluded to earlier in this one. |
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jamiet
World Cup Star
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah - Hindsight what a beautiful thing! |
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Tarquin
World Cup Star
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 221
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| i would normally agree with you but when the same mistakes keep being made in selection issues it is hard to be sympathetic or agree with the hype around what seems to have been a bit of a non event tour at best |
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jamiet
World Cup Star
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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For me the tour was a positive ( not just the 2nd game result ) for the main reason that FH after being forced into a corner finally picked a positive selection , albeit there were still for me a few odd ones.
Now after being forced in someways to admit he had been wrong in the past ( at least he was brave enough to make some of those selections )for me there is only one way to decide wether or not the Argentina tour was a success and that is by the selection policy and style of play adopted for the next few Scotland games.
If selection for the Autumn internationals is based on form and form of the players in the positions they are picked to play , and the style of rugby is positve .Then for me the Argentina Tests were a resounding success.
If however the selection policy and style reverts to pre Argentina then ( despite the result of the 2nd test ) the Aregentina tour will be a resounding failure. |
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Blutto
World Cup Star
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jamiet
FH is constantly being forced to change his selections because they are so obviously poor. Here are a few of his finest from the last 6N alone:
1.Picking the coward, Parks, to give the game to Italy.
2.Dropping CP for the French game.
3.Picking a hopelessly unfit White for France and Wales when Stroker was in such good form.
4.Picking Hines against Wales when he could barely breathe.
5.The ludicrous bench against England that nearly cost us the game.
FH makes mistake after mistake and only when his job is on the line does he stop picking his favourites and actually pick players on form.
He should have gone after Italy. |
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jamiet
World Cup Star
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Blutto I agree with you , however I was commenting on the thread of wether or not the tour was a success |
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Jon
World Cup Star
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 1075
Location: Balerno
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't forget Hadden completely dropped Hoggy from the 22 for France - ludicrous! |
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jrp
World Cup Star
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 544
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon wrote: | | Don't forget Hadden completely dropped Hoggy from the 22 for France - ludicrous! |
Not really, his form last season was a shadow of his former self.
He needs to convert to 8 as I can't see him getting past Strokers and Barclay. |
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