Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15)

RaboDirect Pro12 & Heineken Match Discussion, Referee Retribution, and Player Powwow

Moderators: pedro52, chappo, Ron, Loops

Forum rules
The Edinburgh Rugby Supporters Club is run by fans for fans. Please keep your comments on topic and treat other posters with respect.

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby zt1903 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:14 pm

BigD163 wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
When Matawalu returned to Glasgow there was the opportunity to take a player from there, most likely Horne, which Cockerill refused. From what I hear Fraser leaving has changed things and there may be a move soon.

I'm not sure if Jackson would improve us, it's a long time since I saw him play at 10. He also likes to play flat, loose style, not something I think we are trying to do.


I wonder why that has changed, was Fraser seen as being ahead of Kennedy? If so it makes the 2 year deal he got even more baffling.


Personally I think we should have binned off Kennedy and Fowles and taken Hart back.

Hart is exactly the sort of scrum half that suits our game, should never have sent him along the M8.
zt1903
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:55 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:48 am

joe soap wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:What I would say is more important is if we have the right man coaching to make the decisions on who is good enough and what style of rugby we want to play. Personally I wasn't 100 sold on Cockers but I think he is probably the best option we ae going to have and if anyone is going to snap players out of a malaise for whatever reason then he is as good as anyone. He wont have us playing champagne rugby like Glasgow as that's not his thing but he needs to make is very hard to beat firstly then turn in some winning performances.


some might not like this but he shouldn't try to get Edinburgh playing champagne rugby. He doesn't have the players to do that; its daft to try and make players play a way they are not cut out for; he has no record of coaching in that way (indeed could be said Leicester's attempts ended in abysmal failure).

But he has a hard, winners mentality Perhaps this (which again some may not like) is a start of trying to make the players really see themselves as underdogs, hard done by, and with chips on their shoulders The world against Edinburgh Rugby, everyone is against us and we need to scrap every second of every day to get any reward and recognition. Win, just win, who cares how, be awkward and uncompromising to play against.

I'd be happy with that
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-n ... cockerill/


Agree, he is the man for a specific job. No point in trying to play expansive rugby if that is not what we are built to do. Playing a fast paced game is hugely effective, but so is strangling the life out of the opposition, arguably moreso in NH rugby. So generally teams pick a game plan and go for it. I don't think we will see Glasgow playing an attritional gameplan this season, they just aren't setup to do it.
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:55 am

royc wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
The holy grail, it is quite rare than many teams manage that. Glasgow for all they were brilliant the other night struggled in the set piece and will likely be bullied in the euro games. Toulon spent a fortune on players and coaches and it is arguable that they never mastered the offloading high paced game. So you are right but to expect that at this stage is a bit much. It is also a tactical thing, which you then need to have the players to perform, you cant just switch from one to the other in a week, yes we probably do have the wrong players to play a fast and loose game, so what do you do, change the game and swap all the players? Or adjust the game plan to suit what we have?


Glasgow can actually field a much bigger pack if they need to, with Kebble and Fagerson in the front row and Peterson, Alainu'ese and 19-stone Vunisa. They are all much heavier than their Embra counterparts, giving them the option to play one way or t'other as the situation requires.

Anyway, enough on this, except to say that don't complain anyone when Edinburgh get turned over, give away penalties for holding on, leave the ball-carrier isolated and can't offload to save their lives, that is clearly the height of our ambitions for the team and we better not challenge the weary status quo!


There is more to playing a tighter gameplan than the programme telling you the players are heavier. Glasgow could play their heaviest pack and still get bullied by English and French teams. That's not to say they cant beat them its just reality. Unless at the very top level you cant be world class at everything, Glasgows scrum will beunder pressure for most of the season, again its not to say it will stop them achieving its just the way it is with the players they have.

Similarly we don't seem setup to play a loose offloading game, possibly as we don't have the ball playing skils to do it. But we can still achieve top 3 if we do what we do very well. Which so far we aren't. But I would argue it is easier to get better at our current gameplan than to ditch it entirely and try a new one.


Your last para is just childish.
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:14 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
When Matawalu returned to Glasgow there was the opportunity to take a player from there, most likely Horne, which Cockerill refused. From what I hear Fraser leaving has changed things and there may be a move soon.

I'm not sure if Jackson would improve us, it's a long time since I saw him play at 10. He also likes to play flat, loose style, not something I think we are trying to do.


I wonder why that has changed, was Fraser seen as being ahead of Kennedy? If so it makes the 2 year deal he got even more baffling.


Don't buy that for a second, especially when Glasgow could be 2 9s down during internationals AND they're talking up Matawalu as a winger. Also, the club can't have been relying on Fraser as they didn't show any interest in playing him.

Hastings wasn't mentioned in their Champions Cup squad, a six month loan for him would be grand.


Don't know what the logic is but heard it a couple of time. Suppose it may depend on whether things have changed internally since the start of the season. Sheil being named in our Euro squad makes it less likely. Kennedy is a bit of a mystery, he seems to have ability but cant show any sort of consistency and it has been a number of years since he showed anything that would win him a new contract. Is he playing club rugby at all?

Interesting that Thomson was selected ahead of Hastings for Glasgow. Also that Hogg is named in their squad despite not being close to playing. The injury to Hastings might be worse than first thought? He could still do a job for them rotating in for the league games to take the pressure off. In "big games" he is probably behind Horne and Jackson as backup and behind Seymore, Jackson and Thomson at FB.
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:11 am

zt1903 wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
When Matawalu returned to Glasgow there was the opportunity to take a player from there, most likely Horne, which Cockerill refused. From what I hear Fraser leaving has changed things and there may be a move soon.

I'm not sure if Jackson would improve us, it's a long time since I saw him play at 10. He also likes to play flat, loose style, not something I think we are trying to do.


I wonder why that has changed, was Fraser seen as being ahead of Kennedy? If so it makes the 2 year deal he got even more baffling.


Personally I think we should have binned off Kennedy and Fowles and taken Hart back.

Hart is exactly the sort of scrum half that suits our game, should never have sent him along the M8.


I think his play would suit our game, just not 100% sure he is actually any good, although the same could be said of Fowles and Kennedy so he may not have been a bad alternative.
BigD163
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:23 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:
joe soap wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:What I would say is more important is if we have the right man coaching to make the decisions on who is good enough and what style of rugby we want to play. Personally I wasn't 100 sold on Cockers but I think he is probably the best option we ae going to have and if anyone is going to snap players out of a malaise for whatever reason then he is as good as anyone. He wont have us playing champagne rugby like Glasgow as that's not his thing but he needs to make is very hard to beat firstly then turn in some winning performances.


some might not like this but he shouldn't try to get Edinburgh playing champagne rugby. He doesn't have the players to do that; its daft to try and make players play a way they are not cut out for; he has no record of coaching in that way (indeed could be said Leicester's attempts ended in abysmal failure).

But he has a hard, winners mentality Perhaps this (which again some may not like) is a start of trying to make the players really see themselves as underdogs, hard done by, and with chips on their shoulders The world against Edinburgh Rugby, everyone is against us and we need to scrap every second of every day to get any reward and recognition. Win, just win, who cares how, be awkward and uncompromising to play against.

I'd be happy with that
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-n ... cockerill/


Agree, he is the man for a specific job. No point in trying to play expansive rugby if that is not what we are built to do. Playing a fast paced game is hugely effective, but so is strangling the life out of the opposition, arguably moreso in NH rugby. So generally teams pick a game plan and go for it. I don't think we will see Glasgow playing an attritional gameplan this season, they just aren't setup to do it.


I wouldn't be surprised if the game plan evolves to become more expansive (without being overly expansive) the longer RC stays. It was he who was the driving force behind getting Mauger (or an alternative) to the Tigers to improve the back play so in past he was aware of his own previous limited game plans and did try and change things. It failed, but he was aware of an issue.

This is the very early stages of a rebuild that will likely/perhaps should see some established names punted and the squad remoulded. I can't see Hodge coaching the backline well enough regardless of what game plan RC imposes so that may need to come to ahead sooner than later.
BigD163
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 10:07 am

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby royc on Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:53 am

joe soap wrote:some might not like this but he shouldn't try to get Edinburgh playing champagne rugby. He doesn't have the players to do that; its daft to try and make players play a way they are not cut out for; he has no record of coaching in that way (indeed could be said Leicester's attempts ended in abysmal failure).

/


Sounds good, but let us not confuse getting the forwards playing a more mobile game with 'champagne rugby', which is an entirely different and grander thing way beyond the team's current capabilities. Simple fact is that our forwards are slow comparatively, which is why they're poor at supporting the ball-carrier and we are giving away needless penalties - 3 or 4 v Scarlets? - for holding on in the tackle. That is an issue that needs addressed early doors. It can only be solved by a greater emphasis on fitness and speed training and a better balance between that side and weight training/size.

That is a long way from playing a fast offloading game, let alone 'champagne rugby'!
royc
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 8:52 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby joe soap on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:04 am

royc wrote:Sounds good, but let us not confuse getting the forwards playing a more mobile game with 'champagne rugby', which is an entirely different and grander thing way beyond the team's current capabilities. Simple fact is that our forwards are slow comparatively, which is why they're poor at supporting the ball-carrier and we are giving away needless penalties - 3 or 4 v Scarlets? - for holding on in the tackle. That is an issue that needs addressed early doors. It can only be solved by a greater emphasis on fitness and speed training and a better balance between that side and weight training/size.

That is a long way from playing a fast offloading game, let alone 'champagne rugby'!


I was replying to other posts which may have implied champagne rugby. We don't have the personnel for it anyway. You might just find if you have been following this I have been pushing harder than anyone on the quality of the ball presentation and ball carrier support from the allegedly quality Edinburgh forwards, and criticising the likes of Nel for his turgid displays so far. As ever too many untouchables, too many excuses being made
joe soap
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby doedin on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:12 pm

I think the reality is that many of our players are just not as good as people on this forum think they are. Nor indeed what some of the players themselves think they are! Many are average or even below average for the Pro14 and put them into a team which for many years has performed poorly then all it results in is even more poor performances. Sure some of them have played international rugby but that is more a reflection of the lack of depth we have nationally in key positions than anything else.

The best we can hope for with the current squad is for Cockerill to develop a style of play and a consistency and belief that suits what is otherwise a very limited squad and gets them operating at the top of their game rather than below average.This might allow the few more gifted players we have the room to show their ability. If he achieves hit then we might qualify for the Big Boys Cup and then we get more cash and might attract a few more higher quality players. It will, by his own admission take a couple of years.

I suspect we might see a few guys who continue to underperform get moved on and, hopefully, he spends more time and effort on some of the younger guys who he can work on and mould into what is required. He is going to earn his cash!
doedin
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Crichton Gunner on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:10 pm

Cockers has said all along that this won't be a quick fix, and impatient though we supporters always are, there's nothing to indicate he's wrong about this. He's undoubtedly learning a lot about his players and coaches as he sees them in action each week, and will see where he needs to strengthen, who the young players are who will make it, who should move on. As he commented about Scarlets, they didn't become a championship side in one season, the improvement in the squad happens by evolution. He had a good record at Leicester, and did well at Toulon last year, so is clearly a decent coach. But progress this year is unlikely to be spectacular, and I'm certainly expecting some bad results along the way, particularly in the first half of the season. I'd like to think we'll start to see some real signs of improvement as the season progresses, but it's very early days still.
User avatar
Crichton Gunner
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2655
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Midlothian

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby gunneria on Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:16 pm

There is mention of the lack of mobility of the forwards and this has an impact but I felt the Scarlets game highlighted the forwards inability to adapt to what the opposition were doing. Couple this with bad technique when there was close support, we saw all the turnovers and penalties. These problems were being shown by seasoned players, so I think it does highlight in a lack of quality or rugby intelligence.
gunneria
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:38 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:46 pm

I just posted my thoughts on the game over on the Weedgie Board :eek:

I'll bring them here too, just for the halibut

I've just watched the game the now.

I thought all of our backrow had good games, individually. Ritchie was his usual nuisance self, Watson and Bradbury both carried well - Watson is ridiculously strong in that area.

We were well beaten though. Scarlets, and their Irish lock in particular, just blew us away at the breakdown, where we were sloppy, inaccurate and slow, they kept up momentum with good clean ball.
Two poor lineouts, one in attack and one in defence, were quite likely a fourteen point turnaround.

I don't think Scarlets played particularly well and if I'm scraping for Edinburgh positives it was due in no small part to our defence.
However, we let ourselves down - the second try was down to one of those lineouts previously mentioned. The third try was due to Rizzo earning a red card, you could say the fourth was too as we were out on our feet as all Scarlets had to do was up the tempo and 14 men are going to be left struggling against a good side like them.

Currently I think Berghan is ahead of Nel in form, he has trouble with his foot position, but when he gets it right he is the stronger scrummager. Fordy's darts are better than Rambo's. We need one of our three good looseheads back.

Tovey is a better player than Weir, I hope Cockerill is not being directed in his selection.

I generally have rose coloured specs on when it comes to Scottish sides, but I don't think we are far off - Toolis was a finger nail away from three lineout steals, maybe a couple of tmo reviews would have worked in our favour. This was the league champions pretty much at full strength and at home, they ran out BP winners against 14 men, but it wasn't a hiding by any means, but we really must work on the breakdown.
....and start with SH-C and Tovey
Tichtheid
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2862
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:51 pm
Location: Alba Bheag

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby disco on Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:42 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:
royc wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
The holy grail, it is quite rare than many teams manage that. Glasgow for all they were brilliant the other night struggled in the set piece and will likely be bullied in the euro games. Toulon spent a fortune on players and coaches and it is arguable that they never mastered the offloading high paced game. So you are right but to expect that at this stage is a bit much. It is also a tactical thing, which you then need to have the players to perform, you cant just switch from one to the other in a week, yes we probably do have the wrong players to play a fast and loose game, so what do you do, change the game and swap all the players? Or adjust the game plan to suit what we have?


Glasgow can actually field a much bigger pack if they need to, with Kebble and Fagerson in the front row and Peterson, Alainu'ese and 19-stone Vunisa. They are all much heavier than their Embra counterparts, giving them the option to play one way or t'other as the situation requires.

Anyway, enough on this, except to say that don't complain anyone when Edinburgh get turned over, give away penalties for holding on, leave the ball-carrier isolated and can't offload to save their lives, that is clearly the height of our ambitions for the team and we better not challenge the weary status quo!


There is more to playing a tighter gameplan than the programme telling you the players are heavier. Glasgow could play their heaviest pack and still get bullied by English and French teams. That's not to say they cant beat them its just reality. Unless at the very top level you cant be world class at everything, Glasgows scrum will beunder pressure for most of the season, again its not to say it will stop them achieving its just the way it is with the players they have.

Similarly we don't seem setup to play a loose offloading game, possibly as we don't have the ball playing skils to do it. But we can still achieve top 3 if we do what we do very well. Which so far we aren't. But I would argue it is easier to get better at our current gameplan than to ditch it entirely and try a new one.


Your last para is just childish.

Glasgow scrum was very solid last season - 97% success rate on their own ball across 2016/17. Took on 3 massive packs in Europe and aside from the blow out at Thomond Park matched or bettered Munster, Racing and Leicester in the scrum (including driving back Racing's 950kg+ of forwards at Scotstoun).

Certainly been some issues in the early part of this season. Most of the tight 5 are very young, including 2 near novices. They've been quite aggressive as well (hence winning penalties of their own prior to the Munster game) but it might be better to revert to just setting the platform as they did for much of the last campaign.
disco
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:38 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:15 pm

disco wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:Glasgow scrum was very solid last season - 97% success rate on their own ball across 2016/17. Took on 3 massive packs in Europe and aside from the blow out at Thomond Park matched or bettered Munster, Racing and Leicester in the scrum (including driving back Racing's 950kg+ of forwards at Scotstoun).

Certainly been some issues in the early part of this season. Most of the tight 5 are very young, including 2 near novices. They've been quite aggressive as well (hence winning penalties of their own prior to the Munster game) but it might be better to revert to just setting the platform as they did for much of the last campaign.


True, rather big Reid, Puafisi, Brown and Gray shaped holes in the front 5 at the moment though who would be supplying a lot of the power. Fagerson seems to be having more problems this year, although a less power hooker and 2nd row might be the issue. Will be interesting to see how a fit Kebble and the new Tongan (s he tongan?) get on when they are playing.

*Sorry have mucked up the quotes, I'm not just talking to myself!
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Previous

Return to Edinburgh Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron