Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2016/17

[Frenchy]

Lets take more risks, let's play Dean and Tolifau in the centre together. Let's see what Turner can do instead of your 'steady hand' Ross Ford. We have literally nothing to lose apart from our lofty 8th position.

Maybe so, but the coaches do have their jobs to lose.

[Rico]

We are in a position to take risks. That's exactly the position we're in. We've floated around mediocrity for a long time, we need to change and improve. I think the coaches should take more risks - as they have with Mata and Kinghorn now regulars despite being raw and completely changing the style of play.

Lets take more risks, let's play Dean and Tolifau in the centre together. Let's see what Turner can do instead of your 'steady hand' Ross Ford. We have literally nothing to lose apart from our lofty 8th position.

Realistically, this is what we should be using the Challenge Cup games for.

If we try something that doesn't work out, and we get knocked out, it's not a big deal. But if we find a previously untried combination that works well, or a bunch of fringe players prove themselves, we can then look to use either/both of these in the Pro12.

At the end of the day, the league is what really matters and everything ER does should be about maximising our chances, and position, in that. Doing well in the Challenge Cup should be just a bonus.

[The Feral Goat]

I don’t get this negativity around our hookers I think we are fortunate to have the four we do have. All have the odd throw that misses target but there can be numerous reasons for that rather than solely blaming the hooker.

McInally I think offers more round the parka at the breakdown and ball carrying than most hookers, Cochrane actually hooks at the scrum and was fantastic against Ulster, Ford may be steady and reliable but I don’t think that should be a criticism, Turner has looked decent when given the opportunity but we don’t see him in training etc there must be something the coaches think he needs to work on or he would surely be getting more game time as these days we are not shy at throwing younger players in. In saying that given injuries and AIs I am not sure a front row of Cosgrove, Turner and McCallum would benefit any of them you need an experienced player around them and give our prop situation Turner is maybe just unfortunate at this time.

[Tichtheid]

I don’t get this negativity around our hookers I think we are fortunate to have the four we do have. All have the odd throw that misses target but there can be numerous reasons for that rather than solely blaming the hooker.

McInally I think offers more round the parka at the breakdown and ball carrying than most hookers, Cochrane actually hooks at the scrum and was fantastic against Ulster, Ford may be steady and reliable but I don’t think that should be a criticism, Turner has looked decent when given the opportunity but we don’t see him in training etc there must be something the coaches think he needs to work on or he would surely be getting more game time as these days we are not shy at throwing younger players in. In saying that given injuries and AIs I am not sure a front row of Cosgrove, Turner and McCallum would benefit any of them you need an experienced player around them and give our prop situation Turner is maybe just unfortunate at this time.

This

Cochrane was outstanding against Ulster, I thought, and it was so, so obvious last week what Fordy brings to the table. Scotland were in dire straights until he steadied the scrum - we have a real weapon of first choice front row of Dicko Ford and Nel, I see no reason to dilute that until players move on or retire. By all means rotate the subs, but that front row ain't broke and it don't need fixin'

- apologies for that last phrase, I don't know what came over me

[BigD163]

Cochrane was outstanding against Ulster, I thought, and it was so, so obvious last week what Fordy brings to the table. Scotland were in dire straights until he steadied the scrum - we have a real weapon of first choice front row of Dicko Ford and Nel, I see no reason to dilute that until players move on or retire. By all means rotate the subs, but that front row ain't broke and it don't need fixin'

- apologies for that last phrase, I don't know what came over me

You're right but I do feel Ford and Dickinson move into their latter rugby playing years that they will need to be managed and some preparation for the future is needed. But I think it has worked out fairly well, even if a bit through necessity through injury.

[Friday Knight Lights]

Lets take more risks, let's play Dean and Tolifau in the centre together. Let's see what Turner can do instead of your 'steady hand' Ross Ford. We have literally nothing to lose apart from our lofty 8th position.

Maybe so, but the coaches do have their jobs to lose.

They're caretakers to be fair, they have jobs to gain. I think a good way to gain the job would be by getting crowds to turn up through exciting rugby and improving our young Scottish contingent.

[Friday Knight Lights]

I don’t get this negativity around our hookers I think we are fortunate to have the four we do have. All have the odd throw that misses target but there can be numerous reasons for that rather than solely blaming the hooker.

McInally I think offers more round the parka at the breakdown and ball carrying than most hookers, Cochrane actually hooks at the scrum and was fantastic against Ulster, Ford may be steady and reliable but I don’t think that should be a criticism, Turner has looked decent when given the opportunity but we don’t see him in training etc there must be something the coaches think he needs to work on or he would surely be getting more game time as these days we are not shy at throwing younger players in. In saying that given injuries and AIs I am not sure a front row of Cosgrove, Turner and McCallum would benefit any of them you need an experienced player around them and give our prop situation Turner is maybe just unfortunate at this time.

This

Cochrane was outstanding against Ulster, I thought, and it was so, so obvious last week what Fordy brings to the table. Scotland were in dire straights until he steadied the scrum - we have a real weapon of first choice front row of Dicko Ford and Nel, I see no reason to dilute that until players move on or retire. By all means rotate the subs, but that front row ain't broke and it don't need fixin'

- apologies for that last phrase, I don't know what came over me

Cochrane was good against Ulster to be fair, he's a solid player and that's good as third choice but I'd like to see if we can get more than solid from Turner. Realistically, Ford is a 101 cap international - we need more from that kind of player. We've been poor for a while and okay, Ford is steady but he's not exactly making us any better and pulling us forward. Our pack frustrates me a bit, we have so many good players but they don't really dominate as much as they should.

[Tichtheid]

Cochrane was good against Ulster to be fair, he's a solid player and that's good as third choice but I'd like to see if we can get more than solid from Turner. Realistically, Ford is a 101 cap international - we need more from that kind of player. We've been poor for a while and okay, Ford is steady but he's not exactly making us any better and pulling us forward. Our pack frustrates me a bit, we have so many good players but they don't really dominate as much as they should.

Ford is an immense member of that front row in the scrum, I don't understand why anyone would want to water that down whilst he is still performing at the level he is. Yes others like Rambo and Brown offer a bit more around the parka (as the earlier typo had it), but there is a very good reason Ford has won his 101 caps - no international coach would throw away what he brings in the tight, I don't think Edinburgh should either. He and Cochrane both turn 33 before the end of this season we won't have them for more than a couple of more seasons.
I like change when it brings improvement, but not for the sake of it - on Saturday against a huge Argentinian defence Ford carried the ball well and made a huge difference to the scrum.

It's up to Turner to make the improvements that demand selection, until then I'm happy to have Scotland's premier hooker play for us.

As an aside, Scotland's lineout has been awful for a long time, and it's awful no matter who throws the ball in, leading me to think that it's not just the thrower at fault, and it's something that hasn't been addressed (same with restarts in the last couple of years).
If that lineout sequence had been a functional process for Scotland I'm sure Fordy would have made the last Lions and the next - he's a better scrummaging option than anyone else available to the B&I Lions

[Friday Knight Lights]

Cochrane was good against Ulster to be fair, he's a solid player and that's good as third choice but I'd like to see if we can get more than solid from Turner. Realistically, Ford is a 101 cap international - we need more from that kind of player. We've been poor for a while and okay, Ford is steady but he's not exactly making us any better and pulling us forward. Our pack frustrates me a bit, we have so many good players but they don't really dominate as much as they should.

Ford is an immense member of that front row in the scrum, I don't understand why anyone would want to water that down whilst he is still performing at the level he is. Yes others like Rambo and Brown offer a bit more around the parka (as the earlier typo had it), but there is a very good reason Ford has won his 101 caps - no international coach would throw away what he brings in the tight, I don't think Edinburgh should either. He and Cochrane both turn 33 before the end of this season we won't have them for more than a couple of more seasons.
I like change when it brings improvement, but not for the sake of it - on Saturday against a huge Argentinian defence Ford carried the ball well and made a huge difference to the scrum.

It's up to Turner to make the improvements that demand selection, until then I'm happy to have Scotland's premier hooker play for us.

As an aside, Scotland's lineout has been awful for a long time, and it's awful no matter who throws the ball in, leading me to think that it's not just the thrower at fault, and it's something that hasn't been addressed (same with restarts in the last couple of years).
If that lineout sequence had been a functional process for Scotland I'm sure Fordy would have made the last Lions and the next - he's a better scrummaging option than anyone else available to the B&I Lions

According to stats Ross Ford had two carries for a grand total of zero metres vs Argentina. He did steady the scrum that is true.

I'd argue Scottish rugby legends such as Scott Lawson, Pat Macarthur, Dougie Hall, Fergus Thomson, Kevin Bryce et al have a little something to do with Ford's 101 caps in that we didn't have another option. It's much like Sean Lamont, a good player who started his career very well but accumulated so many caps because we had no options.

I have never blamed Ford for the lineout, it was partly his fault but partly the jumpers and coaching. I don't think a solid lineout would have him in the Lions. He offers precious little around the park, he's built like a rugby player should be but you won't find many meaningful carries or huge hits. Not many hookers these days are purely set piece technicians, they all over a bit more.

But, the point remains, we've had Ford for almost a decade now and he's consistently underwhelmed. It stunts the development of other players for not too much reward. If Turner has a few bad games and Ford is an improvement then that's fair, same with McInally, no point in converting him to hooker only for him to sit on the bench. What do we lose by trying Turner instead of Ford for a few games? We don't really have anything to lose.

[Tichtheid]

According to stats Ross Ford had two carries for a grand total of zero metres vs Argentina.

I saw that stat, but I also saw him carrying the ball at least ten metres and driving two Argentinian defenders back at the same time on one phase, so who knows what the stats complier was on at the time

What do we lose by trying Turner instead of Ford for a few games?

Ford and McInally will be away during the 6N, he'll get a shot then if he performs well at 'Scottish

[robdinsdale]

According to stats Ross Ford had two carries for a grand total of zero metres vs Argentina.

I saw that stat, but I also saw him carrying the ball at least ten metres and driving two Argentinian defenders back at the same time on one phase, so who knows what the stats complier was on at the time

What do we lose by trying Turner instead of Ford for a few games?

Ford and McInally will be away during the 6N, he'll get a shot then if he performs well at 'Scottish

I think Fordy is underrated in the loose and maybe the stats aren't telling the whole story. He's a strong fella and when he takes the ball into contact he definitely occupies the defenders - he's not a bump-and-slump type of player. Good work rate as well.

[Friday Knight Lights]

According to stats Ross Ford had two carries for a grand total of zero metres vs Argentina.

I saw that stat, but I also saw him carrying the ball at least ten metres and driving two Argentinian defenders back at the same time on one phase, so who knows what the stats complier was on at the time

What do we lose by trying Turner instead of Ford for a few games?

Ford and McInally will be away during the 6N, he'll get a shot then if he performs well at 'Scottish

He did have a good carry but it was a maul as the Argentinians held him up and won the scrum turnover so since it was technically a maul I'm guessing stats don't count it as a carry.

Maybe, but it's part of a wider problem, for years young players at Edinburgh have seen few opportunities and their development stunted because we're playing mediocre players instead. It's no surprise that we've started doing well when youngsters and raw talents are given a chance over the bastions of 8th place.

[Tichtheid]

......., for years young players at Edinburgh have seen few opportunities and their development stunted because we're playing mediocre players instead. It's no surprise that we've started doing well when youngsters and raw talents are given a chance over the bastions of 8th place.

Who exactly are you talking about here?

Kinghorn got game time at 18, Ritchie the same age but was really a serious contender for the squad at 19, so was Bradbury at 20. Sam H-C had an outstanding season as a 21 year old, the Toolis brothers were 22/23 when they broke through.
Hoyland will be 23 soon and he was kept out the team by two international wingers one of which was the league's top try scorer year after year in a losing team.
Dean got 20 games or so last season as a 21 year old. At 24 Rory Sutherland is Scotland's and Edinburgh's second choice loose head, we also have the current third choice for both in 24 year old Alan Dell. I have high hopes for McCallum after only a few games

Who are the mediocre old guard that are holding back the precocious talents at Edinburgh's disposal?

[Friday Knight Lights]

There's been plenty young players; Neil Irvine-Hess was a standout at age grade level - we had Baisala, Cox, Leonardi in the back row at that time - why not give him a game or two? Same with Chris Auld - we had Strauss, Beard, Dominguez, why not see what Auld could do? Rob Macalpine has been playing for Glasgow recently but didn't get much of a shot with us. We had Macandrew on the books at points who was a good prospect but went with Fowles and Kennedy (who was uninspiring until he has resurgence under Hodge).

Ultimately young players might not pan out. Every single player mentioned isn't the kind of talent as Kinghorn and Bradbury. But, we've been consistently finished down the table, what would be the harm in giving a young Scot a chance instead of a journeyman? Perhaps I'm wrong and they were never good enough, granted. But Edinburgh haven't been good enough for a long time.

Saracens might cheat the salary cap but a lot of their players are from the academy and even lower leagues - see a certain Duncan Taylor and they do okay. I think we've finally seen a change in the policy as you said by giving more young players a chance.

[Tichtheid]

My memory of the U20s until very recently is of Scotland getting battered, but having improved recently - I say that without looking up any results.

There may have been one or two prospects that fell through the cracks, but the door is not shut to Irvine-Hess, he's still a young guy.
It annoyed me when guys like Coman got dung thrown at him when he was such an important player for Edinburgh, some wunderkind would not have kept the ship afloat like he did, and that is the reason that Edinburgh may have overlooked a few in recent years, we were in danger of going under and the thing to do was to go with that boring Solly-led game plan and stick hoary old pros into the team in certain roles to stop us getting stuffed every Friday and Saturday.

It's an old argument, this.