Hodge is not the answer

RaboDirect Pro12 & Heineken Match Discussion, Referee Retribution, and Player Powwow

Moderators: pedro52, chappo, Ron, Loops

Forum rules
The Edinburgh Rugby Supporters Club is run by fans for fans. Please keep your comments on topic and treat other posters with respect.

Hodge is not the answer

Postby biffer on Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:16 am

We had a tough schedule for the start of the season after which Solomons got fired. Easier schedule for Hodge and no better.
Last edited by biffer on Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
biffer
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:07 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:23 am

I'm still a wait and see kinda guy, I think he showed that he learnt from last week and tried to play more territory. I think he and Scott need more from the pack and they really need to sort out ruck clear outs because it is killing us right now. The defence is a shambles and he needs to work with Wilkins to sort that out and get some structure.

If he can show progression and in the next few weeks we're good at the breakdown and our defence is more structured then we're going somewhere. He'll make mistakes and realistically this season we won't get top 6 so he can afford to. I wouldn't write him off just yet but I would hope Dodson and Petrie are casting the net, I also think we need a better forwards coach - it should be a strength but our pack just isn't competitive enough.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Sonicboom on Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:37 am

Stevie Scott is the one coach I would definitely keep. Our pack is weak because we are missing our top two props on both sides and bresler who adds a lot of bite to our pack. We also seem to have decided Gilchrist needs to play himself back into fitness, I'm a big fan but he is nowhere near his best and isn't in on form. I am yet to be convinced by our defence coach, the same issues appear time after time. Not sure about Hidge yet, done some good things but not sure we are any better off with him at the helm
Sonicboom
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:04 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Oldsalt on Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:23 am

The pack has been ER's weakness for years and that is what Solomons tried to fix. Scott has been there throughout and this is not the first time things have not been working. Instead of focusing on Hodge look at the full coaching staff and then make up your mind.
Winston Churchill said that going to sea was like going to prison but with a chance of drowning!
Oldsalt
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2398
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: Fife

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby GaryIPA on Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:09 am

The issue is more deep rooted than Hodge. This is a result of seasons of mismanagement by the SRU
'The slap is immense'

"this is not soccer"
GaryIPA
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 4323
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 10:00 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:28 pm

Oldsalt wrote:The pack has been ER's weakness for years and that is what Solomons tried to fix. Scott has been there throughout and this is not the first time things have not been working. Instead of focusing on Hodge look at the full coaching staff and then make up your mind.


Agreed, Sollyball didn't work because the pack didn't dominate teams as it should have done. Our front row is incredible at international level but it's never recreated that at Edinburgh level. Our line-out and maul hasn't been the weapon it should be either. The technique we have for ruck clear-outs is pretty poor too, it's really been exposed as we move away from 10 man rugby, it's easy to clear out when you're in pods so the other team doesn't contest but that's been shown up now. That all comes down to the forwards coach.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby joe soap on Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:19 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Our front row is incredible at international level but it's never recreated that at Edinburgh level. Our line-out and maul hasn't been the weapon it should be either. The technique we have for ruck clear-outs is pretty poor too, it's really been exposed as we move away from 10 man rugby, it's easy to clear out when you're in pods so the other team doesn't contest but that's been shown up now. That all comes down to the forwards coach.


while I disagree about the front row - they have been the same for club and country - I'd say hallelujah to the rest of your post. Great set piece last season anyway but the open field play of the pack has been very limited indeed, and we get turned over so easily or get so much slow poor ball
Under Solly and Scott the set piece was fixed, now need to move on and address the rest
joe soap
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:39 pm

Both pro teams and the national team have been very poor at ruck clearance for years. Glasgow have got slightly better.

It comes down to pkaying at pace, if you do it very wuickly and move the ball then refs will turn a blind eye to going off your feet in the clear out, if you do it slowly then they have little option but to whistle.
If we up the pace and intensity which we play at this should solve itself. The other issue is personel, do we have enough palyers who do that dirty work, its not glamourous and it is hard. It is why Harley gets picked for Scotland. Bradbury, Mata, Manu and CDP prefer to play in the wide channels, Hardie can be and Ritchie will be. So it puts more pressure on the front 5 to do that.
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:11 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Both pro teams and the national team have been very poor at ruck clearance for years. Glasgow have got slightly better.

It comes down to pkaying at pace, if you do it very wuickly and move the ball then refs will turn a blind eye to going off your feet in the clear out, if you do it slowly then they have little option but to whistle.
If we up the pace and intensity which we play at this should solve itself. The other issue is personel, do we have enough palyers who do that dirty work, its not glamourous and it is hard. It is why Harley gets picked for Scotland. Bradbury, Mata, Manu and CDP prefer to play in the wide channels, Hardie can be and Ritchie will be. So it puts more pressure on the front 5 to do that.


We still turned the ball over 14 times vs Georgia and they didn't really bother to compete which helped us. We did really well vs Australia at clearouts considering they have Pocock and Hooper - Richie Gray is a monster at the breakdown

It's a technique and gameplan issue for us, in both games the Ospreys and Dragons are clear outs were weak and ineffective but also we weren't breaking the line so it was easy for them to get over the ball as they weren't going backwards. But I have also seen our lads put in powerpuff attempts to get someone off the ball which comes down to technique.

There is a selection issue too I agree. Toolis and Bresler (when fit) would be my second row going forward as both hit rucks for fun, Gilchrist isn't the best at it and it's not like his play around the park merits a place in the team right now. The back row isn't quite balanced enough at present, I can't remember how well du Preez clears out because I haven't watched closely and we play a different game to last year. Mata and Bradbury need to work on it because ball carrying is all well and good but a 6 needs to be dominant in all aspects of contact. I don't think Ritchie is quite big enough just yet to really make a big impact at ruck time.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby doedin on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:21 pm

Scotland looked better at the rucks and clearing out during the AIs than we have for some time and it did allow us quicker ball to release backs. TBH Bradbury didnt do his clearing out job against the Argies hence he was taken off early for Wilson who did! He will learn and will be back in the team sooner rather than later. I suspect Cotter had Gray in doing lots of work on the practice ground and it showed.

Embra have been very poor in this area, partly because we have had to field young guys who have lacked a little experience and muscle in this area. The likes of Nel, Dickinson, Ford and Bressler do a lot of the dirty work at the breakdown and their loss has had an impact. Our pack is full of reasonable players but as others have said are all pretty similar in physique and in the role they want to play with ball in hand and out wide running at the opponents. They are all fit, mobile but rangy sort of players and we lack a couple of big hefty ball carrier who are happier in the tight doing all the arm wrestling. Even the likes of Dell who has played well looks happier running with the ball rather than in the tight. However coupled with this our technique has been poor at the breakdown both the guy taking the ball into contact and presenting the ball and the next two players to the breakdown. Cochrane is the best technically at the breakdown but has not had a lot of game time. We need Richie to run a weekly session or two with the squad to develop the skills set.

Sollyball has got us to where we are over the course of the last 4 years, it is not a particularly great place for one of our two pro teams. Hodge has inherited a squad which is badly lacking across the pitch and has too many guys who didn't make it at their previous clubs (Tovey, Scholes, Allen, Rasolea, Fihaki, Helu, etc) and dont look like doing much better with us or are young but with lots to learn and need to develop physically (Ritchie, Bradbury, Kinghorn, McCallum, Cosgrove, etc). Once you strip out the Scottish squad guys then Hodge has very little quality to chose from, throw in a few injuries and then he is well and truly friar tucked!

Whoever takes over has a job on their hands to recover not just the squad but to build up a style of play which is a step up from the 90’s style 10 man rugby that Solomons subjected us all to for 3+ seasons and which is achieved AlainRolland all.
doedin
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:25 pm

I don't agree that the squad isn't good enough.

We have - arguably - the best tighthead prop in the NH, we have terrific depth at LH prop and two good hookers with Cochrane a capable third choice. Second row is a bit iffy but Bresler was a good signing, Toolis is a good player, McKenzie is solid - GG all over the shop but coming back from two years out. Backrow we have Mata who looks a force of nature, a Super Rugby winning captain, du Preez, Hardie, Watson all great players, Bradbury & Ritchie are extremely talented and going places. So what Fihaki might be a dud? We have a great backrow.

SHC is a good player, a bit all over the place currently but a good player. Kennedy and Fowles are a bit meh tbf. Weir is a good fly half and Tovey is very capable. Centre - yeah not great but Burleigh is a good player and Dean looks promising. Hoyland/Brown/Allen are good players, Scholes was a useful player for Ulster and still young. Bryce was a good fullback when called on for Glasgow too and with Kinghorn there we have a serious prospect.

There's plenty of talent and ability there. Fraser, Miller, Galbraith and McCallum looked the part coming through and could be the backbone of our team soon. Realistically, without Champions Cup and the financial limitations of the SRU recruitment is what it is. Glasgow's punts don't always work either and at the end of the day have picked up very good young Scottish players who have been coached well.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby doedin on Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:40 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I don't agree that the squad isn't good enough.

We have - arguably - the best tighthead prop in the NH, we have terrific depth at LH prop and two good hookers with Cochrane a capable third choice. Second row is a bit iffy but Bresler was a good signing, Toolis is a good player, McKenzie is solid - GG all over the shop but coming back from two years out. Backrow we have Mata who looks a force of nature, a Super Rugby winning captain, du Preez, Hardie, Watson all great players, Bradbury & Ritchie are extremely talented and going places. So what Fihaki might be a dud? We have a great backrow.

SHC is a good player, a bit all over the place currently but a good player. Kennedy and Fowles are a bit meh tbf. Weir is a good fly half and Tovey is very capable. Centre - yeah not great but Burleigh is a good player and Dean looks promising. Hoyland/Brown/Allen are good players, Scholes was a useful player for Ulster and still young. Bryce was a good fullback when called on for Glasgow too and with Kinghorn there we have a serious prospect.

There's plenty of talent and ability there. Fraser, Miller, Galbraith and McCallum looked the part coming through and could be the backbone of our team soon. Realistically, without Champions Cup and the financial limitations of the SRU recruitment is what it is. Glasgow's punts don't always work either and at the end of the day have picked up very good young Scottish players who have been coached well.



If it was that good a squad we wouldn’t be in 10th!

I don't disagree that if we had everyone fit then we can field a strong team, not brilliant but a good team thats strength is in the pack. However there is a touch of rose tinted glasses in your post. I was trying to be objective in assessing the overall squad as pretty thin and when we lose our best guys during the international period we are not left with a strong team. Take out a few injuries and it gets pretty thin indeed.

Lets be honest about some of the squad though!

No arguments about the front row - we can field 2 or even 3 top class front rows and have some good but inexperienced youngsters coming through. Shame about all the injuries though.

2nd row - CG has been pretty poor and is a shadow of his previous self. Toolis looks tired but who else do we play? MacKenzie is solid and aggressive. Bressler is a big loss.

Back row - without Hardie or Watson we look unbalanced in the back row. Mata looks like he will be good but has very limited 15s experience and at times it shows, he will get better. Du Preez is a good player currently playing for Heriots. Bradbury and Ritchie are very talented but are young and inexperienced and that has been evident in the last few games for us, they too will get better. Unfortunately our Super Rugby captain, Ritchie and Bradbury got a doing by the Dragons back row last week which would suggest they are not quite as good (yet) as you suggest!

SHC looked the real deal a couple of seasons ago but last year couldn't hit a barn door with his passing which is pretty basic for a SH! His box kicks were worse. He looked better last week but has a bit to go. Agree with your assessment of Kennedy and Fowles.

I agree about Weir but Tovey is at best a solid 10 who can be flakey at times and is a bit meh. We saw why the Dragons let him go last week when their young 10 ran the show for them and was streets ahead of Tovey.

Centre is still very weak - Burleigh is a decent player. Dean (who looks a better 12 than a 13) has been solid if unspectacular. Tofilau was playing for Kirkaldy last season and has hardly had a game for us and Rasolea looks like he needs a bit more time to work on his defence. Hodge obviously doesn’t see them as first choice picks.

Back 3 - Hoyland looks good.Kinghorn is another great prospect and has done really well but is another who is still very young and will get better as he develops physically. The rest Brown, Allen, Helu would all struggle to get a starting place with any other team in the league, Bryce can’t get a game for us although I think he is a decent player and may yet find his place.

If you look at the last few games then Hodge has had little choice in the team he has fielded, all the debate had been about the back row but he has had little choice elsewhere because of the lack of depth in the squad!
doedin
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:10 pm

I'm not saying we have the best squad in the league doedin.

I think that Glasgow, Leinster, Munster and Ulster are the top dogs no doubt and the Italian teams are bottom dwellers. But I think the middle is much of a muchness and whilst we don't have great depth look at squad players from other teams, it's negligible difference in my opinion.

Connacht won the league because they have an amazing coach and great culture, there's some international recognition for their players but they're hardly spine of the Irish team. The Sportsground is a horrible place to go but nobody is scared of Murrayfield and that makes a big difference. Same with Rodney Parade. I really hope we can make Myreside as unpleasant as possible when the time comes.

I think Manu's comments are illuminating about the mindset. There's no obvious culture at Edinburgh, there's no atmosphere really at Murrayfield, there's not the same link between the fans and the team. If we have a coach who can get players and fans to buy into what he's trying to achieve and is capable tactically I think our squad can finish top 6.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby germain on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:46 pm

Oldsalt wrote:The pack has been ER's weakness for years and that is what Solomons tried to fix. Scott has been there throughout and this is not the first time things have not been working. Instead of focusing on Hodge look at the full coaching staff and then make up your mind.


Anyway, all of the staff is here till 2018...
We can just hope that they are not signed again if they do not succeed (like Solomons, for example).
germain
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:27 pm

Re: Hodge is not answer

Postby doedin on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:39 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I'm not saying we have the best squad in the league doedin.

I think that Glasgow, Leinster, Munster and Ulster are the top dogs no doubt and the Italian teams are bottom dwellers. But I think the middle is much of a muchness and whilst we don't have great depth look at squad players from other teams, it's negligible difference in my opinion.

Connacht won the league because they have an amazing coach and great culture, there's some international recognition for their players but they're hardly spine of the Irish team. The Sportsground is a horrible place to go but nobody is scared of Murrayfield and that makes a big difference. Same with Rodney Parade. I really hope we can make Myreside as unpleasant as possible when the time comes.

I think Manu's comments are illuminating about the mindset. There's no obvious culture at Edinburgh, there's no atmosphere really at Murrayfield, there's not the same link between the fans and the team. If we have a coach who can get players and fans to buy into what he's trying to achieve and is capable tactically I think our squad can finish top 6.


I think your reply answers my answer, our squad is pretty bare and it wont get us beyond 9th or 10th. I don't think it matters where we play if our squad was good enough. Mindset comes with winning and experience - we have neither!
doedin
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:41 pm

Next

Return to Edinburgh Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests