Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

[bignose]

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that last season the problem about Burleigh wasn't that he was a 12 trying to play 10, just that he isn't nearly as good as we wanted to believe.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that he's not nearly as good as he was last season, which presumably boils down to injuries and the old "coaching" chestnut.

[BigD163]

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that last season the problem about Burleigh wasn't that he was a 12 trying to play 10, just that he isn't nearly as good as we wanted to believe.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that he's not nearly as good as he was last season, which presumably boils down to injuries and the old "coaching" chestnut.

I think it is somewhere in between players not being as good as we want to think and the coaching.

The run of 8th, 11th, 10th, 8th, 8th, 9th and whatever happens this year since 10/11 must be down to something. The forwards (1st choice) seem universally thought of as pretty decent. That leaves coaching and the backs.

We know the coaching has been fairly poor but it can't be all their fault for 7 years of SteveWalsh.

Our outside backs have been fairly reasonable but I don't think the play from 9, 10 and 12 has been good enough on the whole.

[joe soap]

[
The forwards (1st choice) seem universally thought of as pretty decent.

set piece and maul this last couple of seasons (until this) were weapons rather than decent. This season even these have mainly gone to pot, injuries no doubt a big factor. But despite a full strength pack full of "names" and ball carriers, it has never been anything like the sum of its parts in open play. Load of that has to be coaching surely? If not then again some of the forwards need a sharp wake up, shape up or ship out

[The Feral Goat]

The forwards (1st choice) seem universally thought of as pretty decent

We undoubtedly had a decent set piece under Solly, but I am not convinced the forwards were that good in the loose and still aren't. Individually some are very good, Watson most notably, but as a unit we are often too slow to rucks and over/under commit numbers, don't clear out effectively. It looks like an inability to analyse what is in front of them and react accordingly.

Backs have struggled for years because we have not had a 10 which we now do, but our 9s are underperforming, back three are ok but get shovelled jamesmatthew because we don't get decent quick ball out of the rucks, there still appears very limited set plays, we rarely even do the most basic draw the man and pass.

I don't think it is individual failings, Burleigh for me reads the game better than most of our other backs. We are just one big dysfunctional group of allegedly talented individuals that appear to have no confidence and no idea how to operate as a team.

[biffer]

I think people need to accept that come next season there will be one or two guys who are fan favourites who will be sidelined / out the door. It's going to happen, and it's going to wind up a few moaners in the support. There are some who never forgave Solomons for sidelining Geoff Cross, even though he was playing like a drain, and has basically admitted in the recent interview that someone linked to that after the World Cup his motivation had gone. THat was held against him by some people for his entire spell in charge.

[royc]

I think the main job for the coaches in the last 4 league games is to end this losing streak in the league and thereby restore some confidence and self-belief in the players, stop the fans drifting away and prevent future recruits writing ER off as a lost cause. Easier said than done, but it comes down to (a) better coaching and some quick fixes and (b) smarter player selection.

The former is a big tapestry. Most of the forwards' recurring errors, like wrong numbers at the breakdown (if in doubt, one more than they've got!), dealing with slow ball coming back (don't go wide, too late for that, carry back up close in so where is the next carrier?), etc, etc, are all covered fully in the coaching manuals, there is not a lot that needs added. That is why I get perplexed by the forward play, we seem to make things more difficult for ourselves, I think Cockerill will have a field day when he pitches up!

Some younger players should feature, those who can do their own job and are also handy ball carriers and battlers in the loose. For me, that's Cosgrove, Turner and McCallum on the bench, Carmichael rotating on bench duty, maybe Bradbury for the back row. (Ritchie and Miller are IMO too light as yet to hold down the 6 position, let alone 8, and there is a better option at 7).

In the front row, the options are slim due to injuries, so Dell, Ford, Berghan.

In the locks, we have got more than our pound of flesh from Ben Toolis this season, he must badly need a break, time for GG to step up and see if he can continue his form v Italy, with Bresler at 4 and Toolis/Carmichael taking turns on the bench.

In the back row, C de P is not carrying up as well as he did and, injury aside, I suspect he's been bulked up too much, similarly Bradbury, which has taken a bit off their pace and energy level. Watson is accordingly doing a good bit of the 8's work at the moment. I would give Mata a try-out at 8, biggest back rower by some way and very impactful in the loose, a proper ball carrier. McInally is a bit light compared to these big back rowers, but would bring him off the bench and see what he can do at 6/8. So Fihaki (better than many rate him) /Bradbury - Mata - Watson, McInally on bench.

[The Feral Goat]

Largely agree, unfortunately Cosgrove is injured think it was 6 weeks from the last home game we had(?) and Carmichael confirmed today on loan to Western Force until end of Super rugby season so limits our options even further in the front five. Bradbury I don't think is expected back this season either, unclear on Hardie so again back row suddenly looking a little thin.

Agree re Toolis has worked tirelessly this season deserves a break and a chance to freshen up before the Oz tour which hopefully he gets picked for.

Scotsman interview (extract copied below) with DuPreez mentions his bulk, sounds like there is a deliberate plan to change him which I remain to be convinced is for the better, made far more of an impact when he was lighter.

"Du Preez has noticeably bulked up in the last year or so and is a different specimen from the player who took the Pro12 by storm when he arrived in 2013. He suffered a bad ankle break in the autumn of 2014 and made his comeback in the home Challenge Cup semi-final win over Dragons and he is hoping for a similar occasion to that one come Friday evening.

“I spend more time in the gym. I’ve had a bit more time for that as I wasn’t playing as much earlier in the season,” said the 26-year-old. “I’ve got targets when it comes to skin folds [measuring muscle to fat ratio]. The conditioning side of the national squad are quite strong on those things as they rightly should be. I’m not really a guy who did much gym work, even back in South Africa, so it’s quite good getting used to it now.

“Just getting the body stronger. I think gym is not only about getting bigger but also about helping prevent getting injuries. That’s one thing I’ve been quite lucky with. I’ve had that big one [the broken ankle] but apart from that I’ve not had many other injuries.”

Ultimately some good coaching should see easy gains!

[royc]

Thanks for update FG. There are good replacements for Cosgrove, Carmichael and Bradbury, but after that the cupboard is looking very bare. My pack would evolve to:

Dell - Ford - Berghan
(McCallum at LH - Turner (40 minutes a game minimum!) - Kevin Bryce)

Bresler - Gilchrist
(Toolis/McKenzie in rotation)

Fihaki - Mata - Watson
(McInally)

That leaves I think only 3 fit forwards in reserve, Beavon, C de P and Ritchie, any of the 9 (?) walking wounded likely to return this season? Better hope no injuries in the next 5 games, not sure it was the best time to let Carmichael go off to Oz.

[royc]

The two things that have struck me this season about the backs play are (a) they do not seem to have many, if any, training ground moves up their sleeves and (b) the skill levels are not great and indeed are sometimes poor.

I am sure there must have been one, but I do not remember a switch, where a player running one angle pops the ball to a player cutting against the direction of run, i.e. going fast in the opposite direction. It is simple enough to do, looks very good from the stands and almost always catches the oppos flat-footed.

Ditto running hard lines at an angle in attack, so not directly at your opposite number but at a player or space further out in the line, thus leaving the chasing mob behind, your direct oppo too far away to interfere and the chance of getting a 3 on 2 if you're quick enough. Those who recall Gordon D'Arcy will remember these diagonal runs where he got beyond the opposite 12's left shoulder and had a range of options with O'Driscoll outside.

Ditto decoy runners.

Ditto decoy runners plus bringing the full back into the line at speed, with one striking here and another dummy running there, and never the same thing twice, as England did to us in the 6N, which completely foxed and ripped open our midfield defence.

If you run the ball from side to side, the oppos will drift along and finally bundle you into touch or something, as edinburgh keep discovering. You need to attack the line somewhere and force them to tackle and the best way of doing that is having a runner, usually wing or FB, coming in at speed at an angle, good chance of breaking into space or at least making a few yards.

And so on, we do not seem to have any pre-planned back plays. None of the above or many more from the same drawer are difficult to do or even that challenging, you can get a young school team to do all that with gusto as long as they have a couple of hard, fast runners who can give and take a pass (admittedly not always a given with Edinburgh!).

I suspect the backs may have been over-loaded with defensive theory stuff - they have the look and demeanor of a demotivated Matt Williams' squad at times - which can sap one's will to live, it is hard to shrug off and play heads-up, attacking rugby.

I feel the team needs to get its attacking act together and that can only come from the coach.

Agree that it needs a change from Burleigh at 12, his second five-eighth play-making role doesn't work so well in Pro 12. Happy to see Dean at 12, crashing the ball up or better, running hard diagonal lines, equally Tofilau having a shot, he is a big lad and should be faster as an outside centre, equally Rasolea, who has all the same qualities. It is a pretty simple position to play and the defensive side is not hard to master under a good coach.

Bryce at outside centre, looks the best of the bunch but may need a crash course in elements of it.

Weir is good at 10, but needs to be making more breaks, the 10 is the main playmaker and that involves more than just tactical kicking, you need to pose an attacking threat that ties in your oppos.

Back 3 of Hoyland/Brown on the fast (right) wing, Scholes/Allen on the hard-running trample-them-underfoot wing.

Kinghorn - or if he's off-form, Brown or Scholes - at fullback.

And somebody at scrum half. I wouldn't bring Shiel in, too young and only got one start in the U20s. Pity Fraser is out injured. Would love to see the Heriots' boy from the U20s, Andrew Simmers, get a shot on the bench if anyone thinks he's up to it, he started all 5 games and was one of the 4 Scots in the 'squad of the tournament'. Other than that, bring Mike Blair in for a crash course with SHC and Fowles (Kennedy still out?). It could be quite a long course, but somebody needs to get a grip on their game and show them what they're doing wrong, which is rather a lot of things at the mo.

So my back line for the last-gasp games:

15 - Kinghorn/Scholes/Brown
14 - Hoyland/Brown
13 - Bryce
12 - Dean/Tofilau/Rasolea
11 - Allen/Scholes
10 - Weir
9 - A 'trainee' scrum half

EDIT to add - and Graham on the bench, get him on the field early and let's see how he copes at Pro level, could add that missing spark at 15 or 14.

[Friday Knight Lights]

"Du Preez has noticeably bulked up in the last year or so and is a different specimen from the player who took the Pro12 by storm when he arrived in 2013. He suffered a bad ankle break in the autumn of 2014 and made his comeback in the home Challenge Cup semi-final win over Dragons and he is hoping for a similar occasion to that one come Friday evening.

“I spend more time in the gym. I’ve had a bit more time for that as I wasn’t playing as much earlier in the season,” said the 26-year-old. “I’ve got targets when it comes to skin folds [measuring muscle to fat ratio]. The conditioning side of the national squad are quite strong on those things as they rightly should be. I’m not really a guy who did much gym work, even back in South Africa, so it’s quite good getting used to it now.

Thanks for posting that. I really hope the gym work hasn't ruined CdP's effectiveness as he's had a poor year. I do think he looks sluggish and big rather than athletic these days. I do wonder if he was put on the right programme. It's interesting Edinburgh have been looking for a new S&C coach - I do wonder if the poster who thought they were doing a poor job had a point.

[dolf_lundgren]

I dont think it is the S&C coach who will decide how he plays. More like the plan will be handed down that they want a muscular or bulky ball carrier and the S&C will work out how to condition him for that role. So it depends on what the brief was.

e.g it is interesting there dont seem to be attempts to bulk up Brown or Hoyland, which is a good thing for their style of play but we have seen a lot of Scottish wingers nuetrred by being bulked.

Also could be a natural thing where he couldnt work on his legs so concentrated on upper body while injured. He will also be working back to full match fitness and has lost a bit of explosiveness which he had when he arrived.

[BigD163]

Kinghorn and Toolis probably deserve a break win or lose this weekend.

Both have played plenty of games and need to avoid burning BK out.

[joe soap]

Agree that it needs a change from Burleigh at 12, his second five-eighth play-making role doesn't work so well in Pro 12. Happy to see Dean at 12, crashing the ball up or better, running hard diagonal lines, equally Tofilau having a shot, he is a big lad and should be faster as an outside centre, equally Rasolea, who has all the same qualities. It is a pretty simple position to play and the defensive side is not hard to master under a good coach.


Weir is good at 10, but needs to be making more breaks, the 10 is the main playmaker and that involves more than just tactical kicking, you need to pose an attacking threat that ties in your oppos.

second playmaker has worked very well in the pro12 - Horne at Glasgow. Burleigh just does not seem up to that kind of standard, but I would accept that he is not exactly playing in a sparkling backline! Hence I agree about a more hard running 12 - but because of who we have rather than any principle.

Agree about Weir, but he definitely your excellent stuff about back plays and dummy runners comes into play - much easier for the 10 to break when there are other likely receivers running positive lines

[dolf_lundgren]

A second distributor can do damage if there are runners to bring into the game, we just dont have that at the moment. We tried a couple of moves last week but it was like slow motion. Our best attack last week was Burleigh crashing up through a gap and feeding Kinghorn, if he had taken the ball cleanly he would have scored. I like Burleigh and I think we need him to be an older head in there to help with defence and attack. Not on form but he is a good player.

Glasgow do play with Horne there and they also Signed Johnson as backup, in big games he was selected ahead of Bennet with Dunbar outside so GT obviously likes that model. Will be interesting to see where he goes when in Scotland job, possibly see more of Scott.

[The Feral Goat]

Robbie Nairn is not being kept on by Quins at end of season, would he be a worthy addition big and quick if I recall correctly?