Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

[Friday Knight Lights]

Signing backs isn't the way forward because we won't sign many good ones (if Weir and Bennett weren't from Glasgow questions remain if they'd have joined). Develop SHC, Fraser, Weir, Dean, Galbraith, Bennett, Hoyland, Graham and Kinghorn into the players their potential suggests they can be rather than hope we sign a better version of Rasolea.

[OldTomMorris]

No word yet on wither Sasa Tofilau is to be signed for another year or not.

Why has Hodge not used him at all since September? His win loss ratio suggests to me that he has made a mistake.

Here are his Highlights clips from this season so far for those who wonder what he's been up to.

https://youtu.be/M08abAxkIls

[royc]

Signing backs isn't the way forward because we won't sign many good ones (if Weir and Bennett weren't from Glasgow questions remain if they'd have joined). Develop SHC, Fraser, Weir, Dean, Galbraith, Bennett, Hoyland, Graham and Kinghorn into the players their potential suggests they can be rather than hope we sign a better version of Rasolea.

What??? Embra currently has one of the more underwhelming back divisions in the league!!!, I'd think signing some decent new recruits would be precisely the right way forward! Far too many corners were cut in the last two seasons ref backs signings and it shows.

Ref not being able to sign many good ones, Embra's poor showing this season might be an obstacle if we were looking to sign top dollar AB stars. Some hope! The kind of quality Pro players ER needs join teams primarily for the contract and the money. If the team is doing well - or not doing so well, but has a new coach and ambitious plans - then that's an added bonus.

This idea of developing the existing players in fine in theory, but after a few seasons of repeating this each season, it is wearing a bit thin. Fair to point out that ER has not proved too good at developing its players so far, particularly its backs, quite a few seem to be regressing rather than developing at the mo. Not one Embra-developed back in the Scottish team on Saturday, must about be an all-time low, says something. It might all change with Cockerill of course, or there again it might not, as he's not primarily a backs coach. The idea that one can take any under-perfoming backs squad and develop it into a winning one is nice but a bit pie-in-the-sky, most teams have to spend a good bit more money than ER just assembling a squad good enough to compete.

Do Weir and Bennett need development? I'd think they were the least of the problems at the moment!

How long does one give SHC to turn the corner, he's had about 18 months playing pretty much as he is now, with not a lot of sign of progress on service, kicking or tackling? Another couple of months? Another season or two?

Scholes has shown a bit of interest and ability in one game in particular so far, is that enough to tip the scales?

Fraser has has pretty limited game time at LS, Galbraith has not really settled on a position or made his mark as yet. Why do we think they are the solution?

I notice you don't mention the other ten players on the backs roster!

Doedin is I think much closer to the mark on what is needed in the backs. A better and more consistent scrum half, a decent winger, who I'd say needs to be a bigger, hard-running unit, a capable outside centre who can run the show while Bennett is off on intl duty, a good young 10 to back up/compete with Tovey when Weir is away with Scotland.

None of them are that difficult to find, there are lots of contracts being signed at the moment, ER just needs to get into the fray while there are still some reasonable players available. If all the cash has already been splashed on the forwards, a la Solomons school of 10-man rugby, then I suppose it's plus ca change for another ER season.

[gowrie]

The issue that all the players we're currently judging as not good enough are themselves the previous targets of our signings. We're talking in this thread about the big money we're going to need to keep Nel, and Bennett coming over who isn't cheap, so what's left to make any new signings we get worlds different from the ones we've made before?

[Friday Knight Lights]

The issue that all the players we're currently judging as not good enough are themselves the previous targets of our signings. We're talking in this thread about the big money we're going to need to keep Nel, and Bennett coming over who isn't cheap, so what's left to make any new signings we get worlds different from the ones we've made before?

Bingo!

royc - Fraser is injured and has been for most of the season. Galbraith is getting game time.

You are correct - I did not mention Fowles, Kennedy, Tovey, Burleigh, Tolifau, Scholes, Allan, Northam, Brown, Helu, Bryce and the others. A common theme there is most are signings from elsewhere and mostly not very good.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. You know what isn't successful? Cheap imports - just look at the last few years. You're right we aren't going to sign an All Black - we're going to sign a Western Force reserve, so what is that point in that?!

You know what is potentially successful? Developing youngsters - I've liked what I've seen from Kinghorn and Hoyland, I think Dean is developing nicely. Glasgow's back line for their QF will likely be Price, Russell, Seymour, Horne, Dunbar, Jones and Hogg - only Jones and Seymour weren't brought through the academy structure there at the time. Coincidence?

If the things that would magically make us competitive 'aren't so difficult to find' we wouldn't consistently be at the bottom of the league as we would have found them...

[royc]

The issue that all the players we're currently judging as not good enough are themselves the previous targets of our signings. We're talking in this thread about the big money we're going to need to keep Nel, and Bennett coming over who isn't cheap, so what's left to make any new signings we get worlds different from the ones we've made before?

As has been said before, it's really a question of striking a better balance in budget allocations between pack and backs. It is a very fine balance, which all the Pro 12 teams have to juggle with and most seem to get a reasonably workable outcome. Edinburgh's has been rather lopsided.

Solomons put the lion's share and then some on the pack, resulting in ER having more internationals in the forward ranks than any other Pro 12 team. Which inevitably left the back division being signed on what must have been something of a shoestring compared with competitors. You can argue whether he was right or wrong but it is hard to argue with the net result, i.e. 9th in the league again.

There is an opportunity to get a better balance for next season. Few, possibly none of the higher-earning forwards who are thought likely to leave will need a one-for-one replacement, because there are already players ready to step up. For instance,

If Manu goes, it would not need a direct replacement, as C du P and Bradbury are likely to be the 8s next term.
If Hardie goes, Watson has already staked his claim with aplomb at openside, it would need only a back-up 7 to be recruited.
If Gilchrist goes, then there is already a pretty good set of locks, with Mata joining and Carmichael stepping up, again it would not be necessary to replace GG with an international-level player, an Edinburgh version of Alainu'uese (Big Brian) would more than do the business.

And so on, there could be some significant savings and some of it needs to be invested in the backs to make up for two seasons of famine. Mark Bennett can't to it all on his own, he's going to need an injection of some talented players around him in addition to what's already on offer.

[The Feral Goat]

You're right we aren't going to sign an All Black

Wrong, we signed Ben Atiga

[Friday Knight Lights]

You're right we aren't going to sign an All Black

Wrong, we signed Ben Atiga

Haha, even when we sign All Blacks we do it wrong! We're cursed!

[royc]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. You know what isn't successful? Cheap imports - just look at the last few years. You're right we aren't going to sign an All Black - we're going to sign a Western Force reserve, so what is that point in that?!

AFAIK nobody has advocated signing 'cheap imports', quite the reverse really, 'budget' signings are the residual problem from Solomons' rather cut-price backs route.

It seems quite a straightforward issue here. There is a massive gap between AB signings and 'Western Force reserves', as Warriors will remind us again with good, shrewd signings like Kebble, Gibbins, Jones, Tagive, Johnson etc. At the level below international, a sharp first-choice younger scrumhalf or big dominant winger could I am told cost £120-£160K, particularly if they're SH. If we go shopping with 60, 70, 80 or 90 K, we won't get much. Which I think is the story so far.

What most clubs do is bring in 3 or 4 good players and keep filler to a minimum. ER has done the opposite.

You solve that by switching about £240K at a rough guess from the forwards budget to the backs budget. There would be more than that in savings from some forwards moving on, it is 5% of the overall player budget so no earth-shattering move.

It would however give the possibility of fielding a back division with a good bit more bite, which is well-overdue.

[royc]

royc - Fraser is injured and has been for most of the season. Galbraith is getting game time.

I have seen them both playing at Richmond several times. Fraser was around the team for about three months, he got 2 starts and 3 off the bench IIRC, don't know about more recently. He looked to be third choice behind Hoadley and Stevenson at that time. But he is a young academy player, might need another season to find his feet. Doubt there is an opening at ER next season, now that Fowles has been re-signed.

I like Tom Galbraith as a player, he's good at inside centre but looks a bit slight. He'd had something like 5 starts by January but was often on the bench, playing second fiddle to Patrick Kelly. I gather he had a game at 10 and was being lined up to have a shot at 15, don't know how that went, Chiel may.

All this to say that they may come good at LS, possibly next term if they're still there, not sure either is yet beating the door down.

If the things that would magically make us competitive 'aren't so difficult to find' we wouldn't consistently be at the bottom of the league as we would have found them...

No you wouldn't have found them if the coach wasn't looking for them. If he thought the magic answer was a big beefy SA-type squad and some journeyman backs, as looked to be the case, then it is no surprise that ER is continually in a bitter battle with Dragons and the Italian teams to avoid the wooden spoon. They at least have the excuse that they have smaller budgets than ER by some way.

AS didn't build up his backs, didn't replace Scott and Visser and similar with anything like the same quality, thought a big pack would do the trick and then he woke up and got his jotters. A more rounded coach will develop both forwards and backs, as everyone else does, not one at the expense of the other, as ER keeps trying to do.

[Friday Knight Lights]

royc - Fraser is injured and has been for most of the season. Galbraith is getting game time.

I have seen them both playing at Richmond several times. Fraser was around the team for about three months, he got 2 starts and 3 off the bench IIRC, don't know about more recently. He looked to be third choice behind Hoadley and Stevenson at that time. But he is a young academy player, might need another season to find his feet. Doubt there is an opening at ER next season, now that Fowles has been re-signed.

I like Tom Galbraith as a player, he's good at inside centre but looks a bit slight. He'd had something like 5 starts by January but was often on the bench, playing second fiddle to Patrick Kelly. I gather he had a game at 10 and was being lined up to have a shot at 15, don't know how that went, Chiel may.

All this to say that they may come good at LS, possibly next term if they're still there, not sure either is yet beating the door down.

If the things that would magically make us competitive 'aren't so difficult to find' we wouldn't consistently be at the bottom of the league as we would have found them...

No you wouldn't have found them if the coach wasn't looking for them. If he thought the magic answer was a big beefy SA-type squad and some journeyman backs, as looked to be the case, then it is no surprise that ER is continually in a bitter battle with Dragons and the Italian teams to avoid the wooden spoon. They at least have the excuse that they have smaller budgets than ER by some way.

AS didn't build up his backs, didn't replace Scott and Visser and similar with anything like the same quality, thought a big pack would do the trick and then he woke up and got his jotters. A more rounded coach will develop both forwards and backs, as everyone else does, not one at the expense of the other, as ER keeps trying to do.

Fraser competing for game time would've done him the world of good, he might not have started a few months in but who knows injury free he might've done. Also, I think Galbraith's problem is he's versatile so that see's him not given consistent game time in one position - pretty sure Bath academy have given him a run out so he must be decent.

There's a reason Scott and Visser left and that is because players of their standard want to play at a higher level and better team than Edinburgh. We were never going to replace amongst the best in the league at their position with players of similar quality. It's also not true the only backs we've signed were SA journeymen - we've signed Pro12 backs, Australian backs and kiwi backs and most of them have been pretty poor. It's worth remembering Scott was a young Currie boy who came through the ranks and Visser was a young lad we developed too after being binned - obviously unfancied guys sometimes work out but more often they don't.

It is fair enough guessing where the Manu/Gilchrist money is going but Watson, Nel, Bradbury, Kinghorn will have all received pay rises and we're bringing in a quality player like Bennett. None of that is cheap. Of course we need to re-balance the squad but we also need to keep our best players. If we could sign obviously quality backs than that is great but I'd really rather prefer we developed young Scottish guys than continued with throwing darts at a Super Rugby B team. We'll never sign a Matt Scott but we might develop a Chris Dean and if he gets close to Matt Scott's level we have a fine player.

[The Chiel]

I do think there's a problem at LS over consistency of selection. Galbraith played 10 at the Pirates and then wasn't picked at all and AFAIK wasn't injured. I believe he played in the B&I last Friday, although I wasn't there. It was a training game in truth.

Rotation is one thing but in a hard league like that you need to know what your teammates are doing. Giving everyone - particularly those down from Scotland - game time appears to be an issue.

In truth I'm not sure what's going on at LS. I haven't seen Lineen ( even on off weeks for the U20s ) or Grant recently. Their points banker, Lydon, is off to Ealing next year - maybe Galbraith gets a run at FB - and they seem to be losing their direction. They need to decide whether they're primarily a team trying to get promoted, or a feeder team. Also h as to be said that since LW went belly up a number of teams are now coasting with no relegation to worry about. LS still playing some very attractive rugby, but always seem to be lacking an extra bit of grunt.

[macdone]

We always need to develop our academy players but having only young, developing scrum halves isn't healthy. Galbraith is miles off the standard required IMO. If anyone we should be trying to get Paddy Kelly.

We need to sign 3 quality players as I see it - a 9, 12 and 15. Gilco and Manu, possibly Hardie should be sacrificed.

So in summary it would be :

Forwards:
Manu - replaced by McInally
McInally - replaced by a 4th choice hooker
Fihaki - replaced by Miller
Gilco - replaced by Hunter-Hill
Beavon - replaced by McCallum

Backs:
Allen - replaced by Bennett
Helu - replaced by Graham
Kennedy - replaced by experienced 9
Bryce - replaced by a quality 15
Burleigh - replaced by a tough 12

Spending would be needed on a 9, 12 and 15 - the scrum half being the priority. The 12 would be much needed defensive leader. In my dreams maybe but that's what we need IMO.

[Friday Knight Lights]

Glasgow have Hunter-Hill - we should be looking to pinch Big Brian though.

The tough 12 will be Dean and the 15 will be Kinghorn I think, really don't see 15 as a need with Kinghorn there we just need Bryce to spot him so he isn't flogged.

[biffer]

Glasgow have Hunter-Hill - we should be looking to pinch Big Brian though.

The tough 12 will be Dean and the 15 will be Kinghorn I think, really don't see 15 as a need with Kinghorn there we just need Bryce to spot him so he isn't flogged.

I think the point is that on the evidence we've seen this year, Bryce isn't up to doing that.