Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby joe soap on Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:46 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote: I think the closer we can get Tim to the ball the better, I'd play him at scrum half!


Tim's gone mate, not coming back. You need to let it go, its for the best :aww:
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:59 pm

joe soap wrote:
where to start? Carmichael would have been packing down behind Cosgrove much of the time. But the issue is how many youngsters can you sensibly lay in a front 5. You may think it does not matter, few coaches will agree with you.

McCallum has been very good (incidentally if you saw or recall him playing for e U20s he was very good indeed - at loose head!)- he got his chance because of injury to both Nel and Bryce, and Bergan for a bit other there was no other better alternative, otherwise he would still be bench warming at best. He deserved to start above the likes of Beavon for example quite clearly in everyone's opinion. The key thing is he was next in line, he wasn't just "given a chance". Players are not "given a chance" - they earn the right to get a chance, or are very very lucky with injuries to others. They earn that right in club matches, in training and in general attitude.

I'm not saying he should not have had a few starts, I am trying patiently to explain why perhaps he didn't get them. Just sometimes even Edinburgh coaches make reasonable calls.


I did see McCallum in the under20s, he was very good as you said. And shock of all shocks - a talented kid given a chance in pro rugby has been very good. Who saw that coming?! I certainly didn't. I thought because we lose all the time we need to play an experienced 30 year old from South Africa until he and the other below average journeymen transformed us into a good team somehow.

The theory has shown to be a nonsense. Really good teams challenging need experience, but we're neither really good or challenging. We lose every game. When Cotter began his Scotland journey he didn't pick experience he gave the young lads a go because they were good and the experienced guys weren't. Is Carmichael the missing link to the Pro12 trophy? Of course not. But it's not like the current 23 are getting anywhere near it either.

To flip the question, why are those established and under performing guys still given a game week in week out? What have they showed? Okay maybe something at the Stoop in January, maybe 5 minutes here and there, maybe something two years ago, maybe something with Scotland when Fraser Brown takes their jersey. They have a questionable attitude in games where they collapse regularly - and apparently attitude is poor in warm ups by the sounds of things so you assume training to as there is no chance players' are given 110% in training if they can't warm up properly. Why isn't Grant Gilchrist playing at Stirling County? Why isn't Ford at whichever pro team he's aligned to? Why must we guess at the 21 year olds Melrose performances or attitude when it's clear some established pros aren't at the level they need to be?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:04 pm

joe soap wrote:
royc wrote:Bennett is out for 9-12 months, which means he is certainly going to miss the first half of the season and may not be back until March/April, so could miss the whole season.


I believe its he same knee he did last time, so not good at all, he may or may not be the same player again. So you are right that Edinburgh should be looking to find another option for 13 for at least a season. Of course having both as options is the best of all worlds, the ideal world.


For a player who relies on his speed and sudden change of movement two knee injuries on the same knee is a real worry I agree. Not sure another injury prone 13 is the answer though - we could have two high earners in the same position out for long periods.

Interesting Fruean was lined up to go to Glasgow pre heart operation, SRU showing a lot of interest - any chance he's SQ?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Wottie on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:53 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:For a player who relies on his speed and sudden change of movement two knee injuries on the same knee is a real worry I agree. Not sure another injury prone 13 is the answer though - we could have two high earners in the same position out for long periods.

Interesting Fruean was lined up to go to Glasgow pre heart operation, SRU showing a lot of interest - any chance he's SQ?


Good question. He's 29 so if he is not SQ'd it's too late to consider as a project player. Wiki has him born in Wellington of Samoan heritage so nothing much in there to suggest he's a big fan of Haggis and shortbread!
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:24 am

If the charge is playing safe with dreary age and experience versus youthful joi de vivre, we should have a look at the facts

Back three - first choice would be Kinghorn (20), Hoyland (23). Brown (27) - second choice from Bryce (26), Scholes (24), Allen (27) or Helu (31) I've excluded Northam due to injury/illness

Midfield Burleigh (31), Dean (23) with backups of Rasolea (26) and Tofilau (23)

Half backs Weir (25) SHC (23) with back ups of Tovey (28) Fowles (24) and Kennedy (26) - choice of SHC debatable

Front row first choice of Dicko (33), Fordy (33) and Nel (29) - obviously injury has put paid to that front row, as it did with Sutherland and Cosgrove, so it's been Dell (25) Ford and Berghan (26) as first choice with various others at loosehead, none worth a stuff imo, certainly not compared to our injured trio and McCallum (21) filling Nel's boots with aplomb, if you'll pardon the expression.
Rambo (26) is second choice hooker, with Cochrane (33) and Turner (25) as bridesmaids.

Boiler room - Toolis (25), McKenzie (29) Gilcho (26) Carmichael (21), with Bressie (29) oot.

Backrow - Bradbury (21) CDP (26), Watson (26) would be my starting three, given the injuries to Manu (29). HArdie (28), Ritchie (20), Mata 25 are the backups, Fihaki (30) is in there too.

I've missed a few players out, mainly due to injury


No one is going to tell me that Dicko and Nel aren't the best props in Scotland.
There is one position occupied by an older player in the backs but I'd argue that Burleigh warrants his place, though I had high hopes for Tofilau.

So it boils down to Carmichael and Turner, really. Is the suggestion that playing those two would have been the fairy dust needed to transform Edinburgh into a play-off side?

I'd argue that our best players have been the youngest ones, but the older ones in situ didn't have anyone breaking the door down, demanding to be picked, and the ones that did such as Blair and Magnus took their chances with both hands, just as Ben Toolis did last year

I don't think our squad is as good as Leinster, Munster or Glasgow, but I don't think that we are as bad as our performances have, I was going to say suggested, but it's more of a shout than a suggestion. We have been utter utter pish, but I think/hope our players are better than that.

Cockerill needs to be given carte blanche on all staff, players and coaches, and we need to give him a chance. It will NOT be fixed by Christmas, not by this time next year, but I would hope we are at least a cussed side who really look like they are playing for the shirt for 80, 81, 82, 83 minutes per game
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby joe soap on Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:49 pm

Tichtheid wrote:So it boils down to Carmichael and Turner, really. Is the suggestion that playing those two would have been the fairy dust needed to transform Edinburgh into a play-off side?


TBF I don't think that is what was being suggested - more a case of "it couldn't be any worse", and give youth a chance.

My own view is it could have been worse, not much maybe, but worse. And though I think Carmichael might have had a start, there were good arguments as to why he didn't; and he did get some gametime (which for age age, position and physical status was about right given the state of his team!)

And I just don't subscribe to the "deserves a chance" theory.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby joe soap on Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:57 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:To flip the question, why are those established and under performing guys still given a game week in week out? What have they showed?


what they have showed is enough to convince the coaches that they are still the best options. Now we can agree that the coaches are not exactly filling anyone with confidence :roll: , but to repeat sometimes they will get something right. They do have far more info than you. Perhaps enough to decide that Carmichael wasn't quite ready to start (perhaps!), certainly seemed to have had enough to decide than Beavon should never be near the match day squad.

where I do agree with you is Ford, but Cochrane would have been a great replacement and a leader; but I agree mainly because as you point out Ford's up and down has gone on for a decade and not changed. Quite a few coaching teams have failed on that one!
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:23 pm

joe soap wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:So it boils down to Carmichael and Turner, really. Is the suggestion that playing those two would have been the fairy dust needed to transform Edinburgh into a play-off side?


TBF I don't think that is what was being suggested - more a case of "it couldn't be any worse", and give youth a chance.


What youth, though?

The ages of the players posted shows that there were four players, maybe five, who were in front of a younger one - Brown, Burleigh, Ford, McKenzie and Gilchrist. Brown's possible younger replacements were Scholes and Allen. Allen is almost the same age and was injured a fair bit iirc, Scholes took 'till a few weeks ago to show anything at all, he had a horrible start to the season.

I would have liked to have seen what Tofilau had to offer

Ford and Gilchrist fall into a separate category, I'm pretty sure there would have been pressure from the SRU to get Gilcho up and running - something that Cockers is going to have to get used to.

On Fordy, as has been said, we don't know what goes on in training, but there is one thing I would put a bet on and that is that the players are measured and recorded at every step. 25 years ago we had scrummage machines that would tell you how much pressure you were putting on the pads, I'm sure it is much more sophisticated now and I've heard tell that the difference Ford brings to the tight scrum is huge - he doesn't hook but the feed is so squint he doesn't have to. His darts are so much better now, but if you are selecting on darts then Cochrane should start for Scotland - he is way better than any other Scottish hooker in that regard.


My own view is it could have been worse, not much maybe, but worse. And though I think Carmichael might have had a start, there were good arguments as to why he didn't; and he did get some gametime (which for age age, position and physical status was about right given the state of his team!)

And I just don't subscribe to the "deserves a chance" theory.


I pretty much agree with this.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:27 pm

Tichtheid wrote:So it boils down to Carmichael and Turner, really. Is the suggestion that playing those two would have been the fairy dust needed to transform Edinburgh into a play-off side?


No. Carmichael and Turner would not have turned this particular Edinburgh vintage into a play off side. However, there are so many components missing that two players aren't the answer, they are part of the answer though. We should follow the Glasgow model as they are a playoff team (usually, this year Champions Cup QF to make up for it). And nobody was suggesting Glasgow should throw Scott Cummings and James Malcolm into the team that went to Allianz purely because they are young so 'deserve a chance'. But rest assured Glasgow will give all their young guys a chance at some point. Look at their team that played Zebre - stacked with young talent because Townsend knows to maintain that level you need youngsters coming through as they are the lifeblood of the Pro team.

The experience argument is circular anyway as you need players being given game time to get experience. If all goes to plan I reckon Carmichael will be involved in any Edinburgh side that does make the playoffs. Cockers even namechecked him and with him talking to the SRU a lot about the opportunities safe to say they do too. The move to the Force will do him good no doubt but so would have a season with starting for Edinburgh.

Turner is a strange one as he has always been very good for Edinburgh in limited time. I can't understand why he hasn't seen more game time. He's 25 this year and has had so little game time it's unreal!
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:47 pm

FKL, I think this is a red herring, the young guys did get a run and some sank, some swam, some both - SHC was Pro 12 young player of the year. Ritchie has blown hot and cold, but I still see a lot of promise in him. Bradbury is one of our best players, along with Sutherland, Dell, McCallum, Kinghorn and Hoyland.

I'm not 100% sure we can call Watson and CDP young now, but they are two of the best in the league, that Watson isn't on the Lions tour is a travesty. Who would be a better pick than either of them?

We've got one of the most exciting players since Hoggy signed up in Graham, we've got Ally Miller and I think I read that Hunter-Hill is to join us (is that correct, anyone?)

I'm not sure that one decent performance for the Force from Carmichael is enough to warrant battering Edinburgh with this stick, there is too much evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:10 pm

Maybe it is a red herring and I do agree we're getting better at introducing young players - although they need better coaching see Kinghorn's tackling and SHC's passing. It's perhaps residual frustration from the years of neglecting youth and that has us where we are now.

Considering Glasgow have just signed Brian on it doesn't make sense for Hunter-Hill to stay as he would be 6th choice - hopefully he does anyway. He is a Stew Mel lad so no idea why he is over there to start with.

I didn't say we should change the back row - it has improved with Bradbury and Ritchie developing though. Back row is one position we are legitimately stacked with talent and especially so if Hardie stays on.

It's got the makings of an exciting pack with Hunter-Hill and Miller added - youth and some good experience. Need to work on hooker and replacement TH though.

The backs are a mess - exciting back three with Hoyland, Kinghorn and Graham but depth there is needed, centres are meh with Bennett out even though I think Dean might be very good at 12, Weir is fine but hasn't played well of late so we need to do something at 10 and 9 is a real mess. A lot of work to be done on the backs but Cockerill so hopefully he can attract guys like Freuan.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:15 pm

Speaking of Fruean sounds like he did have a medical here but has other options and not ScottishQ:

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/robbie-f ... story.html

Weird the medical wasn't a part of the terms, I wonder how often players have a medical without being far along in the signing process. I only know football medicals which seem to be help when a move has been agreed and it is the final hurdle. Wonder if rugby is different.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:28 pm

I would think in this case the medical would be more important than usual. Might even be to make sure we can get insurance as much as anything.

The Samoa thing is interesting, it's a carrot that AP and French teams are less likely to offer.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby royc on Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:58 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
joe soap wrote:
royc wrote:Bennett is out for 9-12 months, which means he is certainly going to miss the first half of the season and may not be back until March/April, so could miss the whole season.


I believe its he same knee he did last time, so not good at all, he may or may not be the same player again. So you are right that Edinburgh should be looking to find another option for 13 for at least a season. Of course having both as options is the best of all worlds, the ideal world.


For a player who relies on his speed and sudden change of movement two knee injuries on the same knee is a real worry I agree. Not sure another injury prone 13 is the answer though - we could have two high earners in the same position out for long periods.


I have a vague recollection from a conversation with an AP coach that the clubs have insurance cover, at some considerable cost, for long-term injuries to players, which allows them to bring in what the French call a 'medical player/replacement'. I suspect this is the case. When Sarto was injured at Warriors and out for at least six months, Tagive was promptly signed up as cover, at a time when I doubt Warriors or SRU had a lot of cash left in the kitty for additional signings. If this is the case, then some or a good part of the cost of a replacement for MB would not be a hit on the squad budget.

Of course that would apply for one season max, if Robbie Fruean signed a 2-year contract, then year two would be a big additional cost. Still worth it though and would give the club some good options in midfield.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby robdinsdale on Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:33 pm

Re. the young player issue. I know in the past it's been a perpetual complaint and everyone wants to see young Scottish players getting developed, but this season we've been putting out teams that are on average younger than I can ever remember from Embra.

If we had tilted even more in favour of youth, we would probably have fallen foul of the Scotland team management. I can't imagine them being happy if we hadn't been giving Gilchrist or Ford gametime.

It's true that the season has been a disaster and with hindsight we could have played what would effectively be a youth development team, but I don't think anybody at the beginning of the season should have been approaching it with the attitude "Results are going to be dire regardless, let's just have a crack."
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