Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:59 pm

gowrie wrote:Reading a bit about what Leicester/AP fans are saying about him, I'm not too keen on the idea. His big drawbacks seem to be:
- Unable to keep up with modern tactics and changes
- Poor rotation and not paying enough attention to player welfare

Maybe up here where he'd be somewhat out of the spotlight and facing a whole new set of limitations on budget and squad he'd change his ways, but it seems like a big risk to me.

I can see why some would like it, he's got a winner's hunger and consistently seems to be able to get as much out of his players as you can get, which are huuuuuuuuuuuge problems for us.

But overall it just sounds to me like it'd be a repeat of the Solomons era, with maybe marginally improved results.


I disagree with the criticisms from fans:

1 - Cockerill plays a pack based territory game; Sarries play that way and won the competition, Exeter play the same way and came second, Leicester came top 4, Saints and Sale play the same way and made the top 6. Wasps were more expansive for sure but any team can play that way when you have the back line they do. A tight set piece oriented game is how you win in England. It's exactly what Eddie Jones does with England and they think he's the messiah!

2 - Injuries often come down to bad luck plus the SRU will rest Scotland players when they want.

I think the main problem with Sollyball was the coaching and attitudes in the squad - Solly wasn't a guy you'd run through a wall for but Cockerill probably is - or he'd chase you through it. Sure, he'll TonySpreadbury players off but if someone isn't willing to give it 100% we don't want them at Edinburgh. Solly's legacy is also recruitment based around Sollyball - it doesn't make sense to suddenly completely change the style as we have square pegs in round holes doing that.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:06 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:We could certainly do worse. Should add a hard edge, but then may lose the players pretty quickly.

Im not sure Hodge coudl go back now, he would twice have been overlooked so loses credibility. Cockerill would probably want his own team too. I really dont like the guy, he makes some stupid statements at the end of games but he is a winner, passioanate and is single minded. He has the attributes that the current team doesnt have.



Edinburgh need a hard edge more than we need to retain soft players I think.

I don't think Hodge loses credibility any more than if he got the boot after we continue to flounder the rest of the year. If we don't start to improve then I doubt he'd get a better job than Edinburgh attack coach. Would clearing the house be the worst idea either if things don't improve?
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:19 pm

I was meaning credibility within the squad, in a harsh way dont really care about what other clubs think of him, if he is not good enough then he should go.

From the start I have struggled to see Scott and Hodge as head coaches, they dont seem to have the charisma. Although Im not saying Cockerill has a lot of that, but you either need that or a big stick which is how George Graham worked. it can work for a while but after a few years players get tired of it.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:41 pm

Surely if Hodge is a good attack coach who helps the player's develop they'll respect him whatever role he takes? You'd hope anyway.

I don't think we need to think long term, Cockerill isn't my guy for 5 years from now. He's someone I think could motivate the squad so there's no more talk about the wrong mentality, play to their strengths and get the most out of them he possibly can. We have a fair few exciting young players - especially forwards - he can develop into really to drawer players. Then in a few years time leave for pastures new and the team is in a much better place than now for a young Scottish coach the SRU want to throw in.

He's also someone I think that could help the move to Myreside, from what I've read he really took an interest in community rugby and had time for everyone. We need that link between coaches, players and fans to prosper I think. He likely either won't want the job or be worth too much but I'd certainly hope Dodson and Petrie are looking for a guy with his background and skillset.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:37 pm

One thing going for us is that he is so dyed in the wool Leicester that it would be hard to imagine him coaching another English team.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby biffer on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:06 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Surely if Hodge is a good attack coach who helps the player's develop they'll respect him whatever role he takes? You'd hope anyway.

I don't think we need to think long term, Cockerill isn't my guy for 5 years from now. He's someone I think could motivate the squad so there's no more talk about the wrong mentality, play to their strengths and get the most out of them he possibly can. We have a fair few exciting young players - especially forwards - he can develop into really to drawer players. Then in a few years time leave for pastures new and the team is in a much better place than now for a young Scottish coach the SRU want to throw in.

He's also someone I think that could help the move to Myreside, from what I've read he really took an interest in community rugby and had time for everyone. We need that link between coaches, players and fans to prosper I think. He likely either won't want the job or be worth too much but I'd certainly hope Dodson and Petrie are looking for a guy with his background and skillset.


That kind of sums up my view on Cockers.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby BigD163 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:16 pm

I'd consider him but would definitely have some questions first.
1. Why hasn't there been more players come through the Leicester youth/academy set up to become 1st teamers?
2. As Edinburgh will be relying on home grown player development - Kinghorn, Bradbury, McCallum etc. what lessons were learned from point 1.
3. How much actual coaching have you done recently? From reading Tigers fan comments elsewhere Richard Blaze has been in charge of the forwards recently.
4. The situation at the Tigers became pretty toxic, what steps would you be taking with your coaching staff to ensure this doesn't happen in Edinburgh?

Couple of outside the box contenders I would possibly consider for an interview if they suggested they would be interested which they possibly wouldn't be:
Alex Sanderson - Done a great job with Saracens forwards and they have managed to forge a good culture etc.
Ali Hepher - Highly regarded Exeter backs coach who has been involved with England A. They have had a similar journey to what Edinburgh would hope to take. Started off 8th in their 1st year in the premiership and haven't looked back.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:54 pm

BigD163 wrote:I'd consider him but would definitely have some questions first.
1. Why hasn't there been more players come through the Leicester youth/academy set up to become 1st teamers?
2. As Edinburgh will be relying on home grown player development - Kinghorn, Bradbury, McCallum etc. what lessons were learned from point 1.

Couple of outside the box contenders I would possibly consider for an interview if they suggested they would be interested which they possibly wouldn't be:
Alex Sanderson - Done a great job with Saracens forwards and they have managed to forge a good culture etc.
Ali Hepher - Highly regarded Exeter backs coach who has been involved with England A. They have had a similar journey to what Edinburgh would hope to take. Started off 8th in their 1st year in the premiership and haven't looked back.


I don't think Leicester are that bad with HG players, especially forwards. But it would be difference if Cockerill is Head Coach here rather than Director of Rugby because at the end of the day Dodson is in charge of contracts with Johnson and Petrie having a big say on comings and goings too. Cockerill of course can identify targets to help him and would bring some guys to Edinburgh of course but if he wants a really powerful back row to dominate games he's going to be told to get the best out of Bradbury, du Preez and Watson/Hardie/Ritchie, if he wants a 10 to run the show then he has to turn Duncan Weir into that guy etc. If he wants a lethal winger he's going to have to find ways to get Hoyland involved more or bring Graham or McCann through.

Sanderson would be a great shout but he's got as good a job as you can get. Sarries are probably grooming him for 2019 when McCall gets the Ireland job and Schmidt returns to NZ. Not sure about Hepher but Exeter are a very well run club so that's an intriguing idea.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby BigD163 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:56 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
BigD163 wrote:I'd consider him but would definitely have some questions first.
1. Why hasn't there been more players come through the Leicester youth/academy set up to become 1st teamers?
2. As Edinburgh will be relying on home grown player development - Kinghorn, Bradbury, McCallum etc. what lessons were learned from point 1.

Couple of outside the box contenders I would possibly consider for an interview if they suggested they would be interested which they possibly wouldn't be:
Alex Sanderson - Done a great job with Saracens forwards and they have managed to forge a good culture etc.
Ali Hepher - Highly regarded Exeter backs coach who has been involved with England A. They have had a similar journey to what Edinburgh would hope to take. Started off 8th in their 1st year in the premiership and haven't looked back.


I don't think Leicester are that bad with HG players, especially forwards. But it would be difference if Cockerill is Head Coach here rather than Director of Rugby because at the end of the day Dodson is in charge of contracts with Johnson and Petrie having a big say on comings and goings too. Cockerill of course can identify targets to help him and would bring some guys to Edinburgh of course but if he wants a really powerful back row to dominate games he's going to be told to get the best out of Bradbury, du Preez and Watson/Hardie/Ritchie, if he wants a 10 to run the show then he has to turn Duncan Weir into that guy etc. If he wants a lethal winger he's going to have to find ways to get Hoyland involved more or bring Graham or McCann through.

Sanderson would be a great shout but he's got as good a job as you can get. Sarries are probably grooming him for 2019 when McCall gets the Ireland job and Schmidt returns to NZ. Not sure about Hepher but Exeter are a very well run club so that's an intriguing idea.


Yeah Sanderson and Hepher were just ideas from the usual type of options available - I would think the likes of Dean Ryan would be interested for instance. Getting Kelly Brown involved, who I believe has been doing coaching down there would maybe be an option. Definitely needs someone used to winning and setting high standards IMO if possible.

The whole DoR v Head Coach thing is interesting, does the DoR really control contracts or Cohen the Tigers CEO? Genuinely not sure.

Not sure I agree about HG players though. I realise he is not solely responsible for the academy output but he would be responsible for a pathway into the senior sides. Using the highly scientific method of looking at the first team squad on wiki there are 14 out of 42 players in the senior squad that came through the Tigers. That's not including the likes of Worth and Yawayawa who are still in the development squads. Those 14 are:
Forwards - Thacker (who is apparently leaving), Youngs, Cole, Balmain, Slater, and Wells
Backs - Harrison, Youngs, Bryant, Catchpole, Smith, and Manu

Not that many starters really. Now there is no doubt some of the players he has brought in have improved, but first and foremost he will have to develop the young Scottish talent, and as part of an interview I think it is fair to ask about why there appears to be a lack of homegrown players coming through at Leicester. There may be a reason for it.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:45 pm

BigD163 wrote:
Yeah Sanderson and Hepher were just ideas from the usual type of options available - I would think the likes of Dean Ryan would be interested for instance. Getting Kelly Brown involved, who I believe has been doing coaching down there would maybe be an option. Definitely needs someone used to winning and setting high standards IMO if possible.

The whole DoR v Head Coach thing is interesting, does the DoR really control contracts or Cohen the Tigers CEO? Genuinely not sure.

Not sure I agree about HG players though. I realise he is not solely responsible for the academy output but he would be responsible for a pathway into the senior sides. Using the highly scientific method of looking at the first team squad on wiki there are 14 out of 42 players in the senior squad that came through the Tigers. That's not including the likes of Worth and Yawayawa who are still in the development squads. Those 14 are:
Forwards - Thacker (who is apparently leaving), Youngs, Cole, Balmain, Slater, and Wells
Backs - Harrison, Youngs, Bryant, Catchpole, Smith, and Manu

Not that many starters really. Now there is no doubt some of the players he has brought in have improved, but first and foremost he will have to develop the young Scottish talent, and as part of an interview I think it is fair to ask about why there appears to be a lack of homegrown players coming through at Leicester. There may be a reason for it.


Has Dean Ryan not got a cushy office job with the RFU nowadays? He left as Scotland forwards coach (did an amazing job too) to be with his family so I don't think he'd take the Edinburgh job.

Would love to bring Kelly Brown to be around the squad and work with the academy but again would he leave Sarries?

Cohen will be in overall control but I think Cockerill would have more say in personnel as that's usually the difference between Director of Rugby and Head Coach. Cockers is getting some stick for renewing the older front rows at huge cost and they aren't living up to that and the Tuilagi stuff.

I agree any potential candidate has to be asked about the youngsters and how they plan on using them. I just thought Leicester were one of the better clubs at doing that.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby BigD163 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:23 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Would love to bring Kelly Brown to be around the squad and work with the academy but again would he leave Sarries?


No harm in JP asking :)
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby dolf_lundgren on Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:34 pm

BigD163 wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
Not sure I agree about HG players though. I realise he is not solely responsible for the academy output but he would be responsible for a pathway into the senior sides. Using the highly scientific method of looking at the first team squad on wiki there are 14 out of 42 players in the senior squad that came through the Tigers. That's not including the likes of Worth and Yawayawa who are still in the development squads. Those 14 are:
Forwards - Thacker (who is apparently leaving), Youngs, Cole, Balmain, Slater, and Wells
Backs - Harrison, Youngs, Bryant, Catchpole, Smith, and Manu

Not that many starters really. Now there is no doubt some of the players he has brought in have improved, but first and foremost he will have to develop the young Scottish talent, and as part of an interview I think it is fair to ask about why there appears to be a lack of homegrown players coming through at Leicester. There may be a reason for it.


Not sure we have many more, about 16 by my count. Depends on your definition of bringing players through, Solly sort of did with Toolis as he took a raw talent and made him a player, but he didnt really bring him through. Ellis Genge is a player who was talented but very wayward, Cockerill has made a player out of him. I think a coach who can find the rough diamonds is the key. He needs to be able to do that and pick the best youngsters from the club game.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby BigD163 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:22 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Not sure we have many more, about 16 by my count. Depends on your definition of bringing players through, Solly sort of did with Toolis as he took a raw talent and made him a player, but he didnt really bring him through. Ellis Genge is a player who was talented but very wayward, Cockerill has made a player out of him. I think a coach who can find the rough diamonds is the key. He needs to be able to do that and pick the best youngsters from the club game.


There probably isn't many more in the Edinburgh set up, but I think I am right in saying more are regularly involved in the matchday 23's throughout the season. And I think there definitely will be in time, the academies are still relatively young so difficult to compare apples with apples.

We do need to find rough diamonds, and to be fair Genge was a good pick up and has improved but he was in dire need of a few slaps around the coupon more than anything. He was capped pretty much at all levels of youth rugby and played regularly for Bristol.

Going back to my original point, I wouldn't be overly against Cockerill, I just think it would be fair to ask him those questions.
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:20 pm

BigD163 wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Would love to bring Kelly Brown to be around the squad and work with the academy but again would he leave Sarries?


No harm in JP asking :)


Brown for forward's coach definitely - although I wouldn't be surprised if Sarries have him cutting his teeth in the academy with a view to him being the next forwards coach like they did with Sanderson.

I'm not sure about Brown, Blair or Dalzell for Head Coach because they don't have the experience. I think the SRU have a plan for Blair as there's been no announcement of his role for next year. Who's the under20s coach for this year with Dalzell at LS? Could that be Blair?
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Re: Players good enough to be in a top 6 squad

Postby BigD163 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:01 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Would love to bring Kelly Brown to be around the squad and work with the academy but again would he leave Sarries?


No harm in JP asking :)


Brown for forward's coach definitely - although I wouldn't be surprised if Sarries have him cutting his teeth in the academy with a view to him being the next forwards coach like they did with Sanderson.

I'm not sure about Brown, Blair or Dalzell for Head Coach because they don't have the experience. I think the SRU have a plan for Blair as there's been no announcement of his role for next year. Who's the under20s coach for this year with Dalzell at LS? Could that be Blair?


Re Brown - definitely not HC but involved in some capacity would be good.

I thought Ben Fisher and Ian Monaghan were the U20 coaches under JD? Or are we expecting that to change?
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