Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:59 pm

royc wrote:You can sack the coach as an instant answer, but it won't IMO change the basic problems. To do that needs a change of thinking along at HQ.

You can lose Hodge, but it won't affect the fact that:

- Both Scott and Wilkins are contracted through to end next season; how many senior coaches would take the gig on when they can't even choose their own assistants?

- The number of academy boys ready and good enough to step up is nothing like many fans' expectations, there are perhaps 4 or 5 at a stretch, but many are simply not big enough or good enough for the Pro game.

There are answers to all these things but they would take a couple of seasons to bring about change and it would require quite a shift in perceptions and expectations at the SRU.


I think Hodge will stay but the same can't be said for Scott and Wilkins. The forward pack's production is a disgrace for the amount of investment made in it and the defence is soft, it has been absolutely pathetic the last two weeks. The SRU can fire people if they want.

You can't say with any certainty how good academy players are at Pro12 level. What have Cosgrove, McCallum, Carmichael, Bradbury, Ritchie, Hoyland and Kinghorn all got in common? All young guys still in or recently out of the academy and performing well. McCallum has been one of the few who can hold his head up for his recent performances. Kinghorn was a gangly 18 year old barely out of school when he made his debut and was still one of our top performers. He did a great job of showing if you're good enough, you're big enough and old enough.

The SRU need to change their approach to Edinburgh and signing someone like Cockerill shows they're taking this more seriously. The change doesn't come with sticking with Hodge (who has won 3/11 Pro12 matches) and making excuses.

As for your reasons for the Leinster defeat they don't wash. (1) Leinster were missing their internationals and had injuries too. We lose regularly even with our best pack (2) We were outplaying them for the first half so there's absolutely no excuse for them to rack up 40 points in the second half our players couldn't be bothered. Hodge's Edinburgh have shown a propensity for 40 minutes of good rugby and 40 minutes of gutless rugby.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby biffer on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:18 pm

Neither Kinghorn nor Ritchie spent any time on academy contracts. Both straight from school on to pro deals.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:44 pm

biffer wrote:Neither Kinghorn nor Ritchie spent any time on academy contracts. Both straight from school on to pro deals.


The point is even stronger than, we've had two kids playing for us before they've experienced years of professional S&C work like the academy guys have. Darcy Graham has been training with the Scotland squad, he's good enough to play with those guys he's good enough to have a few run outs for Edinburgh.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby royc on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:46 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
royc wrote:You can sack the coach as an instant answer, but it won't IMO change the basic problems. To do that needs a change of thinking along at HQ.

You can lose Hodge, but it won't affect the fact that:

- Both Scott and Wilkins are contracted through to end next season; how many senior coaches would take the gig on when they can't even choose their own assistants?

- The number of academy boys ready and good enough to step up is nothing like many fans' expectations, there are perhaps 4 or 5 at a stretch, but many are simply not big enough or good enough for the Pro game.

There are answers to all these things but they would take a couple of seasons to bring about change and it would require quite a shift in perceptions and expectations at the SRU.


I think Hodge will stay but the same can't be said for Scott and Wilkins. The forward pack's production is a disgrace for the amount of investment made in it and the defence is soft, it has been absolutely pathetic the last two weeks. The SRU can fire people if they want.

You can't say with any certainty how good academy players are at Pro12 level. What have Cosgrove, McCallum, Carmichael, Bradbury, Ritchie, Hoyland and Kinghorn all got in common? All young guys still in or recently out of the academy and performing well. McCallum has been one of the few who can hold his head up for his recent performances. Kinghorn was a gangly 18 year old barely out of school when he made his debut and was still one of our top performers. He did a great job of showing if you're good enough, you're big enough and old enough.

The SRU need to change their approach to Edinburgh and signing someone like Cockerill shows they're taking this more seriously. The change doesn't come with sticking with Hodge (who has won 3/11 Pro12 matches) and making excuses.

As for your reasons for the Leinster defeat they don't wash. (1) Leinster were missing their internationals and had injuries too. We lose regularly even with our best pack (2) We were outplaying them for the first half so there's absolutely no excuse for them to rack up 40 points in the second half our players couldn't be bothered. Hodge's Edinburgh have shown a propensity for 40 minutes of good rugby and 40 minutes of gutless rugby.


Yeah yeah, same old. You repeatedly proffer the same old reasons why ER should be a world-beating squad if only there was a bit more shouting at the players, when all the runes emphatically suggest the issues lie elewhere!

You can lead a horse to water FKL, etc ...
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:12 pm

The runes suggest a large issue is mentality, we even have senior players in the squad saying it in the press!

Everyone watched us outplay Leinster for a half, at half time on Friday I'm not sure you were thinking to yourself how much worse than Leinster the team is.

If this team got the mental side of the game right they wouldn't be world beaters but they wouldn't be scrapping the Dragons for 10th either.

The squad can't change the recruitment policy but Cornell du Preez can decide he wants to make a tackle rather than just watch a player run past him for a try.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby Martin Bell on Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:26 pm

If I may, I think you are both right.

The question is whether Mr Cockerill is the right guy to change the mental side. And even if he is, will he also take the playing style away from the direction Scottish rugby aims to go, which is about pace and high skill.The latter would be my concern. Traditional Leicester gameplan is not where we want to go.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby The Feral Goat on Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:49 pm

If I may, I think you are both right.

The question is whether Mr Cockerill is the right guy to change the mental side. And even if he is, will he also take the playing style away from the direction Scottish rugby aims to go, which is about pace and high skill.The latter would be my concern. Traditional Leicester gameplan is not where we want to go.


And this is the problem, Cockerill may very well be the short term fix but we cant keep "rebuilding". We can criticise some of our signings but for the past 4/5 seasons we have been SteveWalsh, good players dont want to come to us, so we have to take who we can get (I still think we are fortunate to get Bennett). As has been said we don't have the money or contractual wiggle room this season to comprehensively reshape the squad, the next coach has to be able to get more out of the majority of the players we have in the first instance.

Cockerill, Ackermann, lineen I really dont care as long as they can make an immediate impact and get us playing like we give a SteveWalsh, taking our chances and winning a few more games...because it really ain't the taking part that counts.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby gowrie on Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:34 am

Martin Bell wrote:If I may I think you're both right


This is the thing which makes it such a pain talking about Edinburgh sometimes. Every single element of the team and organisation's substandard in some way, and at times it seems like it's simply not fixable except by essentially luck.
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Re: Leinster v Edinburgh 17 Feb 17 (19:35) on BBC Alba

Postby joe soap on Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:20 am

The Feral Goat wrote:And this is the problem, Cockerill may very well be the short term fix but we cant keep "rebuilding". We can criticise some of our signings but for the past 4/5 seasons we have been SteveWalsh, good players dont want to come to us, so we have to take who we can get (I still think we are fortunate to get Bennett). As has been said we don't have the money or contractual wiggle room this season to comprehensively reshape the squad, the next coach has to be able to get more out of the majority of the players we have in the first instance.

Cockerill, Ackermann, lineen I really dont care as long as they can make an immediate impact and get us playing like we give a SteveWalsh, taking our chances and winning a few more games...because it really ain't the taking part that counts.


when you say we cannot keep rebuilding that is obviously correct, but neither can we expect instant fixes to stick.

And you are right about limits on contractual wriggle room.

So your wish about immediate impact of a new coach is well a bit of a stretch in reality, and without a propr structure and foundation is wishful thinking for any more than short, very short, term
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