Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:25 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Great interview.

The guys will either buy into and be part of it or they won’t buy into and won’t be part of it…that will be their decision.


It'll be interesting to see who doesn't buy into this. I keep thinking Ross Ford's Edinburgh gravy train might be reaching the buffers but to be fair when pushed by Brown at Scotland he's responded well.

The Englishman promises to hand that mantle to the younger generation because “the senior players haven’t done the job”.


Finally putting the Solly nonsense that young players can't play in a bad team so we're to continue being bad but with some Manuwatu Turbos sub instead of a young Scot to bed.


Ford did respond really well when he lost his Scotland spot, the problem has always been he doesn't play like that all of the time (not close usually, Friday being a case in point). Here he doesn't get dropped whoever the coach is - does that tell us more about the competition for his place, or about the coaches he has had or just illustrate that he he has been happy in the comfort blanket here? Or all of the above?

Solly for all his faults did introduce Scottish youngsters, just did not throw them a in immediately. They will a be a couple of years older now and easier for Cockerill to trust. Now its direction and decent coaching they need rather than just experience

Also I think the senior players referred to are not just non Scots. Manu and Gilchrist , one SQ one not, have failed mainly down to injury. Compare to Ford and when he was here, Mike Coman - which senior player stepped up there to show real leadership on the park?


Manu has been crocked for two years - when he did play he was pretty good, it's the same with John Hardie who I hope stays. Gilchrist, du Preez, Ford, McInally, SHC and Burleigh have been the established players who have really and consistently unperformed this year. The rest; guys like Berghan, Cochrane, McKenzie, Kennedy, Brown are what they are and what they are is below average pro12 players. And you have the young guys who have played well in spots and Watson/Toolis who have been outstanding.

Ford has been benched a couple of times for Cochrane but he just isn't very good - Turner must've done something wrong to never get a look in and that's a problem because he's 24 now and needs to kick on or at least given a chance to and McInally just isn't very good at the set piece. There just isn't a better playing option at 2 than Ford - Rambo needs to move back to back row and okay he won't be an international there but he's only an international hooker because the depth is so bad.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby biffer on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:31 pm

Cochrane has provided some leadership when he's played, it's been noticeable how it's disappear when he's left the pitch. Turner needs a run of games to see if the good form he's shown when he's been given a rare shot can be consistently applied.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:46 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Ford has been benched a couple of times for Cochrane but he just isn't very good -


If you mean Cochrane isn't very good then I'd totally disagree, He has been excellent and as Biffer points out shows real leadership.
And Ford trundles on season after season knowing that coaches (Scotland and Edinburgh) see him as you do, no surprise he doesn't step up, no surprise he disappears at times, he doesn't need to any more to keep getting paid loads and selected. There is a clue with what is wrong in there, what has been wrong for a long while. Ford has been a bed blocker, his very substantial wages would have been better applied elsewhere
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:00 pm

I think we need to bear in mind what Ford brings to the team as well as what he doesn't. He is not an all action Schalk Brits type of hooker, carrying out wide and throwing offloads. He plays a much tighter game, carries a lot in the close quarters stuff and makes a lot of tackles, not dominant hits but again close quarters stuff. His real strength is the scrum and maul where he can use his size. Someone described him as a middle prop and that is about right. So it depends on what game you want to play. Yes he is limited but he also has strengths. Nel and Dickinson have got a alot of praise for their scrum work but there has been a 3rd member of that front row and it shouldn't be overloooked.

Much like when Phil Vickery was pilloried for his scrumamging for the lions vs South Africa, he had Lee Mears next to him, when he had Mathew Rees (a full sized person) in the 3rd test he was a different player, although the Beast had Ralapelle next to him not Du Plessis.

He hasnt had a good season and as a leader he isnt shouty but he does bring a calmness and clarity. He may not be everyone cup of tea but a succession of coaches have rated him above others in Scotland so you cant write him off. In the last few games, we have been awful to start with then turned in a better performance in the end half, maybe it is his on field leadership which is doing that, without being on the pitch you have no way of knowing what effect he has on the players.

I would say Rambo has been a bigger disappointment, he has lost a bit of his carrying, not surprisingly, but has not gained enough in the tight play.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:12 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Ford has been benched a couple of times for Cochrane but he just isn't very good -


If you mean Cochrane isn't very good then I'd totally disagree, He has been excellent and as Biffer points out shows real leadership.
And Ford trundles on season after season knowing that coaches (Scotland and Edinburgh) see him as you do, no surprise he doesn't step up, no surprise he disappears at times, he doesn't need to any more to keep getting paid loads and selected. There is a clue with what is wrong in there, what has been wrong for a long while. Ford has been a bed blocker, his very substantial wages would have been better applied elsewhere


Not as a rugby player Cochrane hasn't been excellent - he's at best below average for the Pro12 - the leadership point is valid but his actual rugby ability is pretty poor.

Ford didn't get 100 caps by not being the best option at the time - as soon as Brown developed into a better option he got the starts - there's no Ford gets picked for the sake of it. He gets picked because he is the best option. Okay we can pretend Scott Lawson and Pat Macarthur are an upgrade from time to time but the fact remains Ford has been the best option for the last 100 Scotland games.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:47 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:I think we need to bear in mind what Ford brings to the team as well as what he doesn't. He is not an all action Schalk Brits type of hooker, carrying out wide and throwing offloads. He plays a much tighter game, carries a lot in the close quarters stuff and makes a lot of tackles, not dominant hits but again close quarters stuff. His real strength is the scrum and maul where he can use his size. Someone described him as a middle prop and that is about right. So it depends on what game you want to play. Yes he is limited but he also has strengths. Nel and Dickinson have got a alot of praise for their scrum work but there has been a 3rd member of that front row and it shouldn't be overloooked.


the third prop analogy registers with me, he really isn't playing the role any other hooker is. I think its a problem, You can't win much without a decent set scrum but neither can you win much with just a set scrum from your pack. Ford is another lump in midfield to run around (queue replies that he doesn't miss many tackles, he doesn't but he isn't really out in open space like other hookers defending against faster players). The more big fatties you have the more targets the opposition backs have for mismatches or spaces to run through. So while I accept what he does he does well, he doesn't do stuff a modern hooker needs to do. Very few are Brits or Cronin in open play; just like Brown would do - or given his size, Du Plessis!

And despite his longevity with coaches, he still is in a long term comfort zone, who knows who might have come on given a tenth of he chances Ford has had

As to leadership, any sign he is asked to step out of his comfort zone by "leading" throughout his career has always resulted in a loss of form. He isn't value for what Edinburgh pay him from the budget
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby bignose on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:55 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Not as a rugby player Cochrane hasn't been excellent - he's at best below average for the Pro12 - the leadership point is valid but his actual rugby ability is pretty poor.


What do you think Cochrane's weaknesses are? I think the sum of his parts are greater than what Ford offers but then perhaps I'm looking for different things than you are.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:56 pm

How much does he get paid?

It horses for courses though, he cant do what Britz does and vice versa.

Im not sure I want a hooker who defends out wide all the time. I really think people are hard on Ross, he is described as lazy and not trying when in reality we have no idea how hard he is trying and working. He is a very quiet guy by all accounts and I dont think that should be a stick to beat him with, not all players give impassioned speeches. Leadership is about setting standards and encouraging quietly just as much as it is the overt stuff.

Jonny Gray is a quiet leader and I dont see his "style" getting criticised. He also makes most of his tackles and carries in the tight but isn't criticised for not being dynamic enough. It is understanding the role they play in the team. As I said he has deficiencies but he is better than he gets credit for.

If you look at Steve Thomson he is a very simialr type of player, just keeps everything together, not hugely flashy though.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:57 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Not as a rugby player Cochrane hasn't been excellent - he's at best below average for the Pro12 - the leadership point is valid but his actual rugby ability is pretty poor.
.


I think that's nonsense, but then as you said yourself

"I think with Cockers we finally have the coach to try and create an identity but Glasgow's was built as much by Kellock and Hall etc as anyone else, do we have the players to create the identity Cockers will want?"

Cochrane has been the only player to show any leadership; and previous couple of seasons the best leader wan't someone seen by many as a shoe in for a starting back row position, Coman.

Ross has been here for how long? He has never shown any likelihood of being part of the solution in terms of building a club, its just not him, he isn't the type of character needed. Sad but there it is. You can build around a lesser player who is a leader; and if that means Cochrane ahead of Ford and McInally so be it.
Unless there is an obvious better option for next season or Gilchrist stays, stays fit and stays at his best, what options are there?
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:04 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:If you look at Steve Thomson he is a very simialr type of player, just keeps everything together, not hugely flashy though.


Steve Thomson came to prominence at hooker scoring a 60m try leaving defenders for pace. At the end of his career he scored this one in a vets match. I await Fordy's equivalent :D :D :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyNNSZPxtOU

he was so much more a McInally type converted back row than a Ford one
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:24 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Not as a rugby player Cochrane hasn't been excellent - he's at best below average for the Pro12 - the leadership point is valid but his actual rugby ability is pretty poor.
.


I think that's nonsense, but then as you said yourself

"I think with Cockers we finally have the coach to try and create an identity but Glasgow's was built as much by Kellock and Hall etc as anyone else, do we have the players to create the identity Cockers will want?"

Cochrane has been the only player to show any leadership; and previous couple of seasons the best leader wan't someone seen by many as a shoe in for a starting back row position, Coman.

Ross has been here for how long? He has never shown any likelihood of being part of the solution in terms of building a club, its just not him, he isn't the type of character needed. Sad but there it is. You can build around a lesser player who is a leader; and if that means Cochrane ahead of Ford and McInally so be it.
Unless there is an obvious better option for next season or Gilchrist stays, stays fit and stays at his best, what options are there?


Kellock and Hall were far better players than Cochrane though. It is fair enough, leadership is important but Kellock and Hall were both internationals with hundreds of professional appearances for Glasgow where you'd be hard pressed to find a fan who does not consider them a club legend. Kellock was captain of Scotland too. Cochrane is nowhere near their ability or stature within the game. You won't built a team or culture around 33 year old Neil Cochrane and Ford won't be the leader of the team, true, but if Cockers can light a fire under him - and Fraser Brown and Vern Cotter have shown that you can - then he's a much better player than Cochrane.

I think Ritchie, Hunter-Hill (if he joins), Miller and Dean will be a core of leaders as all have captaincy experience with old heads like Dickinson, Watson and whoever survives the cull helping out.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby macdone on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:46 am

Cochrane has been our best hooker this year as well as best jackal and best captain so he offers a lot. He can actually hook the ball, throw straight and marshal the maul well.

He should be replaced by Alun Walker imo who has filled out and is having a great season in the Championship down south.

Rambo either needs to revert to 6/8 or leave the club - hooker is the one position in the pack where we need a big signing.
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:37 am

Ross has been here for how long? He has never shown any likelihood of being part of the solution in terms of building a club, its just not him, he isn't the type of character needed


Agree with this, think Ford is decent player but his performances always suffer when he is made captain, so you have to question why the coaches continue to make him captain.

Watson/Toolis have been our standout players in terms of performance and attitude but I have no idea if either have any leadership ability, Toolis certainly comes across as quite a quiet person.

Cochrane has played well and provided the best on field leadership. Manu presumably should have filled the Coman role but has been injured for the most part and Gilchrist is struggling for form, we really are short of standout leaders.

Another good interview with Cockerill, his appointment may just get me back next season
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby Wottie on Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:21 pm

On the coaching front, any news of what Nathan Hines is doing post Cotter's reign with Scotland? Is he going with Vern to France, staying with the national team setup, or is he available now? He seemed to be doing well under Cotter and wonder if he may pitch up as part of a revamped team under Cockerill?
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Re: Richard Cockerill confirmed as HC

Postby hp18 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:37 pm

Wottie wrote:On the coaching front, any news of what Nathan Hines is doing post Cotter's reign with Scotland? Is he going with Vern to France, staying with the national team setup, or is he available now? He seemed to be doing well under Cotter and wonder if he may pitch up as part of a revamped team under Cockerill?

Off to Montpellier with vern.
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