Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:37 pm

doedin wrote:There are lots on here who do accept mediocrity by continuing to defend players in the squad who are quite clearly never going to get us into a top 6 position. We need to set the standards higher than we have in the past!



That's just another way of saying that everyone should agree with you and your assessments of players and coaches.

I would wager that there is not one poster or lurker on the forum who is happy with how things are, the way to get better is not as easy as you might think. If you want to get rid of players fine - identify who and who you would replace them with and how we do it in terms of their contracts and money available to Edinburgh.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby adi1314 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:54 pm

I wasn't overly impressed when Tovey signed, NSQ and surplus to requirements at the Dragons. But to be fair he has done ok as the no. 2 to Weir, and shown some nice play along the way. I guess he may have been reasonably priced as well. Also, his signing allowed Burleigh to move to 12 where he had looked very good previously. I'm not sure the Myreside move has helped him as he seemed to play well in the wider spaces of Murrayfield, where there was less heavy traffic. Behind a pack getting front foot ball he was able to show his skills, but the Edinburgh pack seems to have lost a bit of momentum with injuries and Intl call-ups.

The question now is, is he going to improve Edinburgh from where they are now or is he getting in the way of Kinghorn getting some games at 10 to see if he can provide an answer longer term? My answer is, no I can't see him improving the team from the current level, so maybe we need to look at other options.

I think everyone has different views on the team/players, and they are free to air them here.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby GaryIPA on Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:30 pm

adi1314 wrote:I wasn't overly impressed when Tovey signed, NSQ and surplus to requirements at the Dragons. But to be fair he has done ok as the no. 2 to Weir, and shown some nice play along the way. I guess he may have been reasonably priced as well. Also, his signing allowed Burleigh to move to 12 where he had looked very good previously. I'm not sure the Myreside move has helped him as he seemed to play well in the wider spaces of Murrayfield, where there was less heavy traffic. Behind a pack getting front foot ball he was able to show his skills, but the Edinburgh pack seems to have lost a bit of momentum with injuries and Intl call-ups.

The question now is, is he going to improve Edinburgh from where they are now or is he getting in the way of Kinghorn getting some games at 10 to see if he can provide an answer longer term? My answer is, no I can't see him improving the team from the current level, so maybe we need to look at other options.

I think everyone has different views on the team/players, and they are free to air them here.


Tovey was out of favour (kind) not surplus
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby joe soap on Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:33 pm

doedin wrote: There are lots on here who do accept mediocrity by continuing to defend players in the squad who are quite clearly never going to get us into a top 6 position.


more rubbish. Folk show their support in different ways, at one extremes some whinge incessantly, at the other some usually try to find a positive. Some have given up and no longer attend, some support whatever believing that withdrawing support makes it worse not better. All different and none are confirmation of complacency.

You post the same thing time after time, cut and paste complete with redundant exclamation marks!

What you call in yourself as no acceptance of complacency smacks of self agrandisement - and shows a sense of entitlement, the very thing that started the slide. Edinburgh are not entitled to anything; pro rugby consists of virtuous circles of some, vicious circles for others and treading water for the rest in between. Even with unlimited budgets it is hard to move between these, very hard. If it was as easy as you think (and you do think it is) I think othrs would have solved the problem earlier. Edinburgh dropped into the vicious circle set, it is going to continue to be very challenging to get out of it, much harder than armchair experts could ever comprehend.

Fortunately slagging off players before they get here makes little difference. It does make this board less attractive, there is only so much jamesmatthew rugby AND jamesmatthew opinions folk can take
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby robdinsdale on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:03 pm

adi1314 wrote:
I think everyone has different views on the team/players, and they are free to air them here.


Of course. You're all wrong though.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:54 pm

doedin wrote:
There are lots on here who do accept mediocrity by continuing to defend players in the squad who are quite clearly never going to get us into a top 6 position. We need to set the standards higher than we have in the past!


Tovey is a back up though, how many back up 10s can we sign that are better than he is?

Tovey, Scholes et al aren't the problem, Glasgow/Ulster/Leinster and Munster supplement their team with signings rather than build them with signings. The Ospreys young Welsh side has been a joy to watch this year. Our problem is we just aren't developing really good players and that comes down to coaching.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:25 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote: Our problem is we just aren't developing really good players and that comes down to coaching.


Sutherland, Cosgrove, Rambo, Turner, McCallum, Carmichael, Ritchie, Bradbury, Sam H-C, Dean, Hoyland, Kinghorn

They all have come up with Edinburgh, Sammy is the only one who has stalled so far, but he is getting his form back.

I don't think that is a fair charge against Edinburgh Rugby
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby bignose on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:29 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
doedin wrote:
There are lots on here who do accept mediocrity by continuing to defend players in the squad who are quite clearly never going to get us into a top 6 position. We need to set the standards higher than we have in the past!


Tovey is a back up though, how many back up 10s can we sign that are better than he is?


Tovey is and was a step up in what we had available and there are aspects of his game that are considerably better than Weir's in my obviously irrelevant opinion.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:32 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote: Our problem is we just aren't developing really good players and that comes down to coaching.


Sutherland, Cosgrove, Rambo, Turner, McCallum, Carmichael, Ritchie, Bradbury, Sam H-C, Dean, Hoyland, Kinghorn

They all have come up with Edinburgh, Sammy is the only one who has stalled so far, but he is getting his form back.

I don't think that is a fair charge against Edinburgh Rugby


Exactly my point! Those guys are all under 25 (aside from Rambo who is 26). They should all develop into players capable of competing for a top 6 place every year within the next few years with proper coaching.

Where are the guys entering or in their prime that we've developed into consistently great Pro12 players ready to compete for a playoff place? Hamish Watson is the only one I can think of. Scott/Viss/Denton have all left and GG isn't playing well.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:33 pm

bignose wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
doedin wrote:
There are lots on here who do accept mediocrity by continuing to defend players in the squad who are quite clearly never going to get us into a top 6 position. We need to set the standards higher than we have in the past!


Tovey is a back up though, how many back up 10s can we sign that are better than he is?


Tovey is and was a step up in what we had available and there are aspects of his game that are considerably better than Weir's in my obviously irrelevant opinion.


No doubt he was better than Burleigh. I think Weir is the better option because he runs a game more effectively and has a superior kicking game but I agree that Tovey is better in other areas.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Exactly my point! Those guys are all under 25 (aside from Rambo who is 26). They should all develop into players capable of competing for a top 6 place every year within the next few years with proper coaching.

Where are the guys entering or in their prime that we've developed into consistently great Pro12 players ready to compete for a playoff place? Hamish Watson is the only one I can think of. Scott/Viss/Denton have all left and GG isn't playing well.



We have had a coaching problem, Johnson has said that we were left listing on an open sea, but now the SRU have turned their attention to us.
But it's not true that we haven't developed players in the way you said, anyone would think from that that we had no one of any use whatsoever other than Nel and the ex Glasgow boys or anyone who has been brought in.

I expect things to get better with a coach with a heck of a CV like Cockers'
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:50 pm

Tichtheid wrote:We have had a coaching problem, Johnson has said that we were left listing on an open sea, but now the SRU have turned their attention to us.
But it's not true that we haven't developed players in the way you said, anyone would think from that that we had no one of any use whatsoever other than Nel and the ex Glasgow boys or anyone who has been brought in.

I expect things to get better with a coach with a heck of a CV like Cockers'


That's not what I said though, I think we have a lot of good players and a hell of a lot of promising young guys breaking through. But who are the players we've brought through who are now in their prime and ready to challenge in the Pro12? Watson, Toolis, Ford and du Preez? Our recruitment has brought some great players like Dickinson coming back, Nel coming over, Hardie, Bresler who would be ideally supplements to a homegrown talent whilst also bringing in the next generation.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby bignose on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:13 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:No doubt he was better than Burleigh. I think Weir is the better option because he runs a game more effectively and has a superior kicking game but I agree that Tovey is better in other areas.


Personally I think Tovey has the better kicking game, not because he can hoof the ball further but because he reads the spaces and the situations better and kicks at more appropriate times. With regard to running a game, until such time as we get some threats with alternative running lines from our backs/phase play then we'll never know which one of them can actually run a game properly. Ain't much to run when all you've got is crash-bash and simple hands passing the ball the full width of the pitch. That's why we end up with Rinse-Repeat-Kick the ball away rugby.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby biffer on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:26 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote: Our problem is we just aren't developing really good players and that comes down to coaching.


Sutherland, Cosgrove, Rambo, Turner, McCallum, Carmichael, Ritchie, Bradbury, Sam H-C, Dean, Hoyland, Kinghorn

They all have come up with Edinburgh, Sammy is the only one who has stalled so far, but he is getting his form back.

I don't think that is a fair charge against Edinburgh Rugby


Exactly my point! Those guys are all under 25 (aside from Rambo who is 26). They should all develop into players capable of competing for a top 6 place every year within the next few years with proper coaching.

Where are the guys entering or in their prime that we've developed into consistently great Pro12 players ready to compete for a playoff place? Hamish Watson is the only one I can think of. Scott/Viss/Denton have all left and GG isn't playing well.


So you're asking where the guys are who would have been going through an academy or development system 2008-2010, yeah?

Where are the guys who were coming through when McKie had turned off all the taps and there was hardly any investment into the developing young guys to become professionals?

Do you see the problem with your question?
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff 24/2/17

Postby Oldsalt on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:30 am

We had three years of 10 man rugby with Alan Solomons and the back division was an afterthought. Hodge and Co will not change things in a few months. Players who for me have not or don't currently cut are as follow, Straus was to slow for pro rugby, Burleigh not up to standard at all no spark, Helu who is he? That would do for a start.
Now I do not give a monkeys cuss whether you agree with me or not, this is a forum where people are entitled to express an opinion. If you disagree fair enough but to denigrate posters because you do not agree with them says more about you than anything you have to say!
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