Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:02 am

Absolutely agree, you cant seperate the good stuff from the bad stuff last night. When we were good it was very good but when it was bad it was awful.

It has to be a mindset thing, the players have the abilty to perform but they just crumble when the pressure comes on. It has to t be the senior players who step up, but that doesnt seem to be happening.

We have been hugely hamstrung with the loss of so many props and arguably our 2 best players but we need to do better. Dean looked better and had more confidence, his error was a 50/50, SHC was better and looked hungry, Watson was good but I dont think anyone else had a good game, they all had decent stuff and poor stuff. It was against a very good team, arguably top of the top14 is as good as any, but we still shoud have had them. The non-hooking in the scrum was just embarassing.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:41 am

GaryIPA wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
GaryIPA wrote:
This. He should be a bit part player filling in now and again. Not first choice


No he shouldn't. Kinghorn has shown he deserves to be a starting fullback in the Pro12 the guy is a class act. I'd rather have Kinghorn as my starting 15 than most in the Pro12 - we aren't going to sign a better fullback than him either.

The problem is he has always been a shaky tackler with poor technique and it has not improved in two years - that is on the coaches as their job is to erm coach?


It's acceptance of this kind of mediocrity that gets us in 10th place good enough for the squad. Not as a starter. And the coaches.


Lol. What acceptance? I slated the coaches for being inept...

Kinghorn is 20, a really great talent and we need to coach him up so he improves even further. Kinghorn has been one of our players of the season - he clearly is not the problem. His tackle was shocking and he needs to improve tackling ASAP. But, he needs coaching help with that - you know the guys with the job description of improving players technically? If a coach's job isn't to improve a talented kid like Kinghorn what is their job?

Anyway, it's not accepting anything to think we aren't going to sign a better player. It is the reality. We aren't going to sign Stuart Hogg - we're going to sign Glenn Bryce. Is Glenn Bryce better than Kinghorn? Absolutely not. So what makes you think the other back up 15s in the league are? But if not lets trawl SANZAAR as that's always helped us sign really top drawer class players that allow us to compete!

If you want more years of this TonySpreadbury then yes signing anyone and everyone from the KelvinDeaker end of nowhere and playing them over a young talented hungry Scot for years is the best way forward with that. If you want a club that improves we need young players with potential to be properly coached up into great players. That's how Glasgow do it. That's how Munster do it. That's how Leinster do it. That's how the Ospreys are doing it. That's how Connacht did it. In short; that's how successful teams do it.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:46 am

They also do it by bringing young players into a winning team, which is the one thing Solly got right, you cant throw in a bunch of kids to get beaten up every week and expect them to improve. They also have some very good experienced players around who set the culture. Either our older gys arent doing that or havent been allowed to do that. They dont need to be shouty, just determined, have a work ethic not accept 2nd best. I would almost sign Slamont for a year for that very reason. We need a few of that type of player.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby liveinhope on Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:00 pm

Despite some quite appalling play at times last night I'm with the glass half full minority on here.If you'd told after last week's shocking performance at Scarlets that we'd be a pass away under the posts to level the score at 29-29 with ten minutes to go against the runaway leaders of the Top 14 I'd have called for the men in white coats. (and if we had I'd have backed us to go on and win with the crowd support).
On the positive side I thought Du Preez finally looked much more like the players of two years ago (a couple of trademark offloads in the 2nd half spring to mind, Gilchrist looks on the upward curve finally and a delight to see that the backs can occasionally get you out of your seat-Dean in particular making amends for the previous week.)
Head and shoulders though above anyone in Edinburgh colours was Hamish Watson-at times it seemed there were three of them on the pitch.If Duncan Hodge does nothing else this season could he please start bending a few journalists ears about our man for the Lions tour-he was immense on the pitch last night but time to trumpet this in the media for the next fortnight please (instead of Ashton or Cipriani!)
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby royc on Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:29 pm

Was I being too kind? I thought that, after letting in two pretty soft tries in the first 14 minutes, it could turn into a rout. The team did well to get back to 22-26, but lacks the firepower to put a team like La Roch away. Good effort by all though to get back into contention.

There were some positives:

Line breaks: 9... 6
Offloads: 11... 6
Lineouts won on own throw: 17... 10
Penalties conceded: 7... 10

We had a fair number of opportunities, we just don't have the composure and skill levels, particularly in a speedy game like last night's, to always capitalise on them. That is partly a coaching-skills issue. A couple of star players wouldn't go amiss either, a player like Retiere is a game changer. Good breaks by Dean, Brown and Watson in particular.

A lot of the game we were pretty evenly matched:

Possession: 50... 50
Territory: 53... 47
Carries: 90... 92
Tackles: 97... 85
Rucks/mauls lost: 2... 2 (I doubt this stat, think we lost either 3 or 4?)

But the old failings were there too:

Lineouts lost on own throw: 3... 1
Scrums lost: 2... 0
Missed tackles: 19... 14
Turnovers conceded: 17... 12

Disappointed with scrum buckling, though we are missing a heap of key players through injury. The lineout is still a weakness, it becomes a bit obvious if you keep throwing to the same catcher, there's others who can catch apart from Gilchrist and McKenzie. The lifters were a tad late getting their man up at least twice, little things, but the lineout is not that well organised, which is primarily a coaching issue.

The missed tackle discrepancy is probably largely down to Retiere's two runs, rather than an across-the-board failing.Turnovers is disappointing though, I'd missed Weir being stripped a second time, we are not great at ball protection, is that coaches not coaching or players not learning, who knows?

All that to say, I'm not glossing over the weaknesses. There will always be errors in a rugby match, Edinburgh made a few too many, but I don't think it was as error-strewn as some are saying.

We don't at the moment have a dominant pack, mainly but not wholly down to injuries, and we lack sufficient firepower in the backs, but we know all that. Given these essential limitations, I still feel that the team did well, they showed a bit of fight which makes up for a lot.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby The Feral Goat on Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:18 pm

Edinburgh made a few too many, but I don't think it was as error-strewn as some are saying.


Perhaps not but the errors always happen at key moments a good bit of attack ended by a knock on or turnover or poor pass. In defence a crucial lineout missing its target, a turnover or missed tackle. It looks like we don't train at a high enough intensity to be able to execute the skills in match conditions.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Oldsalt on Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:15 pm

This :above:
Winston Churchill said that going to sea was like going to prison but with a chance of drowning!
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby royc on Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:09 pm

Yes indeed, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Frenchy on Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:16 pm

Is there ever a "non-key moment" to make an error?
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:22 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:They also do it by bringing young players into a winning team, which is the one thing Solly got right, you cant throw in a bunch of kids to get beaten up every week and expect them to improve. They also have some very good experienced players around who set the culture. Either our older gys arent doing that or havent been allowed to do that. They dont need to be shouty, just determined, have a work ethic not accept 2nd best. I would almost sign Slamont for a year for that very reason. We need a few of that type of player.


Kinghorn's poor technique when tackling their 9 had nothing to do with Edinburgh losing all the time, it was bad technique and his last man tackling technique has been poor since he broke through. I just don't think it is a confidence issue because he doesn't lack confidence when galloping forward and throwing offloads despite being part of a losing team. Even for the under20s who were flying last year his tackling left much to be desired. That's down to coaching I'm afraid.

Solomons got it wrong, he played no young players to develop a winning team and culture .... okay fine the idea makes sense .... but he created neither a good culture or a winning team. Theory and reality are two completely different things and Solomons was too wedded to a theory that did not work. Culture is important but it's a bit chicken and egg - you rarely if ever hear of a winning team with a terrible culture.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Wottie on Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:33 pm

If anyone wants to know how gutted Kinghorn was after his error, and how much he cares, have a look at the closing minutes of the game where you will see him (recklessly) throwing himself into rucks frantically trying to get the ball back. Bit more of that from others wouldn't go amiss.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby GunnerRob on Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:57 pm

Despite the two early scores, the knock-ons and all of the other errors, I thought this game was there for the taking with 15mins left. There were a few phases of play around when they got their prop sin-binned when they looked tired. It reminded me of the Racing game a few years ago when we ran them off the park at the end of the game and won.

Of course we didn't raise the pace of the game and instead walked very slowly up to every lineout and lost any and all momentum. I nearly burst out laughing when, after their last 3 points, we came running up for the restart and tried a 10m kick instead of the usual kick into the 22m which we do for EVERY other restart.
Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't believe we were slowing the game down so much at the lineouts etc. in the second half. What did we have to lose?
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:42 pm

Of course we didn't raise the pace of the game and instead walked very slowly up to every lineout and lost any and all momentum. I nearly burst out laughing when, after their last 3 points, we came running up for the restart and tried a 10m kick instead of the usual kick into the 22m which we do for EVERY other restart.
Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't believe we were slowing the game down so much at the lineouts etc. in the second half. What did we have to lose?


Probably going for the non-existent LBP, I think we play with about that much rugby brain at present.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Drookit on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:45 am

royc wrote: Disappointed with scrum buckling, though we are missing a heap of key players through injury. The lineout is still a weakness, it becomes a bit obvious if you keep throwing to the same catcher, there's others who can catch apart from Gilchrist and McKenzie. The lifters were a tad late getting their man up at least twice, little things, but the lineout is not that well organised, which is primarily a coaching issue.



The lineout is still a weakness - really? The lineouts are actually one of our major strengths. Edinburgh's lucky to have the top lineout operator in both the Pro12 and European Challenge controlling our lineouts: Ben Toolis continually tops the charts for lineouts taken, which is very impressive considering Edinburgh's last couple of seasons. He's pretty nifty with the steals as well. He hasn't achieved that by operating weak lineouts on a regular basis! The ball thrower and the lifters definitely need to improve their game, but even when working with some dodgy throws and lifts, Toolis does a superb job to control it. We missed him Friday night. Hope he's back on board soon.
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Re: Challenge Cup Quarter: ER v La Rochelle (8pm 31/03)

Postby Frenchy on Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:46 pm

The wee SH is causing big problems for Gloucester too.
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