Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby The Feral Goat on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:42 am

BigD163 wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40448854

2 SA teams to join 2017/18 (unconfirmed still but appears a done deal) certainly story not going away.

There have been a few articles on various SA and UK/Irish papers/websites since this first appeared a month or so ago. What I had not appreciated was that SA provide the majority of the TV revenue to SANZAR and Super rugby at present. Indications are that there is an equal split of TV revenue in this Pro12 deal.

As usual further details needed but from a purely commercial point of view it appears to make more sense than I had initially thought.

https://www.alloutrugby.com/sa-teams-queue-for-pro12/


I'd only be in favour in it if:
a) They guarantee the 2 sides in the pro 12 are not to become feeder teams for Super Rugby sides.
b) The eventual plan is for SA to withdraw from SANZAR and join an expanded pro 12.

Not sure how both of the above are workable though.


a) think there is a history of the better teams recruiting the better players from the weaker SA franchises, much like Leinster/Munster have done with Connacht in the past
b) certainly sounds like there are big problems within SANZAR, last thing I would want is a conference system. don't like them, have never known them to work but cant see how there can be expansion beyond 14 teams without it.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby BigD163 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:51 am

The Feral Goat wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40448854

2 SA teams to join 2017/18 (unconfirmed still but appears a done deal) certainly story not going away.

There have been a few articles on various SA and UK/Irish papers/websites since this first appeared a month or so ago. What I had not appreciated was that SA provide the majority of the TV revenue to SANZAR and Super rugby at present. Indications are that there is an equal split of TV revenue in this Pro12 deal.

As usual further details needed but from a purely commercial point of view it appears to make more sense than I had initially thought.

https://www.alloutrugby.com/sa-teams-queue-for-pro12/


I'd only be in favour in it if:
a) They guarantee the 2 sides in the pro 12 are not to become feeder teams for Super Rugby sides.
b) The eventual plan is for SA to withdraw from SANZAR and join an expanded pro 12.

Not sure how both of the above are workable though.


a) think there is a history of the better teams recruiting the better players from the weaker SA franchises, much like Leinster/Munster have done with Connacht in the past
b) certainly sounds like there are big problems within SANZAR, last thing I would want is a conference system. don't like them, have never known them to work but cant see how there can be expansion beyond 14 teams without it.


The issue I have with a then is the Pro12 is then accepting of known weaker SA sides and the impact that may have on sponsorship/TV etc.

On b, a non conference system could work if they say; bin the Italians for a Georgian side + the other 4 SA sides leaving 17 teams. 16 games split 8 home and 8 away (play each team once, fixtures reverse the next season). Top 6 make the play offs with top 2 getting byes. Maximum of 19 club games a season.

Not necessarily a fan of the above idea but for me it's better long term than just accepting the 2 teams SA don't see as viable long term SR sides.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby The Feral Goat on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:17 pm

Would have to assume that the expected new income stream from SA joining would more than offset any potential loss to current revenues.

I agree that I would have liked to see stronger SA representation. My understanding is SA and AUS unions got to choose which teams to cut from super rugby and if this Pro12 deal has been in the mix for a wee while, as appears to be the case, and SA are genuinely interested in playing in a NH tournament(s), then perhaps move one of the stronger teams and one of the weaker teams to show a bit more commitment. This could be a power play on their part to try and leverage AUS and NZ with the threat of them binning SANZAR sacrificing a couple of teams that were likely to disappear anyway in the process.

I shall wait something official and a lot more detail which I am sure will be forthcoming!
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby artie fufkin on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:15 pm

Whilst the Pro12 could do with a higher profile and more money I'm slightly uneasy at this development. With the increasing money to the big leagues the Pro12 has been left behind. How does this fit in with any strategic plans the league has, if any? It smacks of opportunism but does nothing to strengthen the league as a whole. As mentioned previously there are 4 weak teams in the league, Edinburgh included. Dilution of the product won't help.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 pm

BigD163 wrote:
On b, a non conference system could work if they say; bin the Italians for a Georgian side + the other 4 SA sides leaving 17 teams. 16 games split 8 home and 8 away (play each team once, fixtures reverse the next season). Top 6 make the play offs with top 2 getting byes. Maximum of 19 club games a season.


As opposed to 22 Games per team. A lot fewer games for TV companies to pay for, for sponsors to advertise at, for corporate hospitality to be sold for, for fans to pay for and buy stuff at.

And the Weegies are already rightly pointing out they have paid for 14 home games.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:28 am

joe soap wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
On b, a non conference system could work if they say; bin the Italians for a Georgian side + the other 4 SA sides leaving 17 teams. 16 games split 8 home and 8 away (play each team once, fixtures reverse the next season). Top 6 make the play offs with top 2 getting byes. Maximum of 19 club games a season.


As opposed to 22 Games per team. A lot fewer games for TV companies to pay for, for sponsors to advertise at, for corporate hospitality to be sold for, for fans to pay for and buy stuff at.

And the Weegies are already rightly pointing out they have paid for 14 home games.


16 teams, two conferences of 8, gives 22 games (play teams in same conflict home and away, other conference once).
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:35 am

biffer wrote:
joe soap wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
On b, a non conference system could work if they say; bin the Italians for a Georgian side + the other 4 SA sides leaving 17 teams. 16 games split 8 home and 8 away (play each team once, fixtures reverse the next season). Top 6 make the play offs with top 2 getting byes. Maximum of 19 club games a season.


As opposed to 22 Games per team. A lot fewer games for TV companies to pay for, for sponsors to advertise at, for corporate hospitality to be sold for, for fans to pay for and buy stuff at.

And the Weegies are already rightly pointing out they have paid for 14 home games.


16 teams, two conferences of 8, gives 22 games (play teams in same conflict home and away, other conference once).


Maths never was the strong suit of our weeg friends.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby disco on Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:03 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
biffer wrote:
joe soap wrote:As opposed to 22 Games per team. A lot fewer games for TV companies to pay for, for sponsors to advertise at, for corporate hospitality to be sold for, for fans to pay for and buy stuff at.

And the Weegies are already rightly pointing out they have paid for 14 home games.


16 teams, two conferences of 8, gives 22 games (play teams in same conflict home and away, other conference once).


Maths never was the strong suit of our weeg friends.

It's a 14 team league that's being discussed though (at least for 1 season). 9 or 10 home games under a conference system. 13 home games under a straight league (which would give a pretty unmanageable 26 week regular season). The only way to get to 11 home games would be some pretty lopsided fixture lists with teams not playing against every other club in the league.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:31 pm

Conferences are only sensible option, equal split from each country in each with u20s style play offs to determine final places.

Giving 16/18 games each, stop for 6nand really pee off the Spivs!
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:25 pm

biffer wrote:
16 teams, two conferences of 8, gives 22 games (play teams in same conflict home and away, other conference once).


I was responding to BigD's suggestion of a 16 team league NON conference set up. Flawed, but at least he seems to recognise what a nonsense a conference system is
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:24 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Conferences are only sensible option, equal split from each country in each with u20s style play offs to determine final places.

Giving 16/18 games each, stop for 6nand really pee off the Spivs!


I assume they'd add on a protected cross conference game as well, so we have the 1872 cup over two legs for example. Watch our 'traditional rivalry' with the Italians go out the window so we don't get extra games against 'easy ' teams.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:12 pm

True, hadn't thought of that! Is probably quite important commercially to have the derbys.

Hmm, there will be a way of doing it I'm sure.

Doubt it would work but would the 1872 played as a stand along trophy on boxing day (or at that time of year) be as big a draw? It might well be. Glasgow would probably have a strop about it always being at Mfield though.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby The Feral Goat on Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:56 am

Per Mark Palmer in the Sunday Times

Still to be approved but

SA broadcaster Supersport to bring another £11m doubling current TV money.
Two conferences of 7
Top3 of each into playoff
Requirement for SA union to ensure more internationals in SA teams.
Extra ER v GW derby among others

Edit: I wonder if this in the background is another reason for ST delay. Dont imagine those that have already sold STs would be happy at having less matches.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Sonicboom on Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:55 pm

I hate, hate, hate the idea of splitting the league!
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby robdinsdale on Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:33 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:Per Mark Palmer in the Sunday Times

Still to be approved but

SA broadcaster Supersport to bring another £11m doubling current TV money.
Two conferences of 7
Top3 of each into playoff
Requirement for SA union to ensure more internationals in SA teams.
Extra ER v GW derby among others

Edit: I wonder if this in the background is another reason for ST delay. Dont imagine those that have already sold STs would be happy at having less matches.


The conference system is not something that we're used to and is probably going to be a bit of a bodge. But, the unions and clubs are absolutely going to accept that in return for doubling the TV money.

I imagine that everyone will be wanting to keep the local derbies and the same number of home games.

I saw that the conferences are likely to be 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, and 1 each of Scottish, Italian and South African and that seems the most sensible way to split it.

I doubt that the competition will be as high profile in SA as Super Rugby but at least the matches will be at sensible times of day for viewing purposes so audiences could be decent - and there's an incentive for them there to invest in the playing squads, keep them competitive and grow the interest.
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