Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby robdinsdale on Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:35 pm

Where will the extra game against Glasgow be played? I wonder if they will test the waters in Aberdeen etc.?
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:46 pm

robdinsdale wrote:Where will the extra game against Glasgow be played? I wonder if they will test the waters in Aberdeen etc.?


That would be an interesting idea but I wonder if Edinburgh vs Glasgow would sell out Pittodrie?

I don't love the idea of changing the league but the Pro12 desperately needs improved and more money - SA teams are the same time frame and will be much better than any US/Canadian/Georgian/German team AND bring in more money so it's a no brainer.

I would kick out the Italians and add the SA teams instead of them though.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:05 pm

robdinsdale wrote:Where will the extra game against Glasgow be played? I wonder if they will test the waters in Aberdeen etc.?


If Glasgow and Edinburgh are in different divisions, they'd normally only play once. The extra game is so that we get one in Edinburgh and one in Glasgow. We're not talking about a third game.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Crichton Gunner on Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:06 pm

I was initially quite sceptical about this, but the more I think about it the more I think it's a decent idea. The main thing is that the standard of the league is good, and this does offer the potential to improve it. And does it really make much difference if we're playing a team from Italy, Ireland or SA? I'm unlikely to go to an away match in any of these places, so the fact that SA is a long way away is actually fairly irrelevant to me (and most supporters). As for the conference concept, again what matters to me is that I see good games when I go to watch Edinburgh. If it can produce a higher quality of game, with a decent play-off and finale to the competition, then the pro's will outweigh the cons, and I'm sure I'll get used to the new format, whatever that is. No need to add that a doubling (or even a significant increase) in revenues would be very welcome to the union's/clubs.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby The Feral Goat on Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:49 pm

biffer wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:Where will the extra game against Glasgow be played? I wonder if they will test the waters in Aberdeen etc.?


If Glasgow and Edinburgh are in different divisions, they'd normally only play once. The extra game is so that we get one in Edinburgh and one in Glasgow. We're not talking about a third game.


Per this article it is a third Edinburgh v glasgow game. I assume to keep the number of games up and so the Irish and Welsh can have their derbies. myreside, scotstoun and keep murrayfield at Xmas as "neutral" venue although perhaps the opportunity to take the game north or south of central belt should not be overlooked, plus Glasgow contingent would prob not be overly happy at two games in Edinburgh

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40464201
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:02 pm

Crichton Gunner wrote:I was initially quite sceptical about this, but the more I think about it the more I think it's a decent idea. The main thing is that the standard of the league is good, and this does offer the potential to improve it. And does it really make much difference if we're playing a team from Italy, Ireland or SA? I'm unlikely to go to an away match in any of these places, so the fact that SA is a long way away is actually fairly irrelevant to me (and most supporters). As for the conference concept, again what matters to me is that I see good games when I go to watch Edinburgh. If it can produce a higher quality of game, with a decent play-off and finale to the competition, then the pro's will outweigh the cons, and I'm sure I'll get used to the new format, whatever that is. No need to add that a doubling (or even a significant increase) in revenues would be very welcome to the union's/clubs.


No doubt, if anything I'm probably more likely to go to Bloemfontein than Newport...
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:10 pm

Crichton Gunner wrote:I was initially quite sceptical about this, but the more I think about it the more I think it's a decent idea. The main thing is that the standard of the league is good, and this does offer the potential to improve it. And does it really make much difference if we're playing a team from Italy, Ireland or SA? I'm unlikely to go to an away match in any of these places, so the fact that SA is a long way away is actually fairly irrelevant to me (and most supporters). As for the conference concept, again what matters to me is that I see good games when I go to watch Edinburgh. If it can produce a higher quality of game, with a decent play-off and finale to the competition, then the pro's will outweigh the cons, and I'm sure I'll get used to the new format, whatever that is. No need to add that a doubling (or even a significant increase) in revenues would be very welcome to the union's/clubs.


Travel is not irrelevant to the players or teams, far from it, and not just the significant cost.

The extra TV money being sought would be offset by extra travel costs, fewer games equals few hospitality packages etc etc. The economics are far from obvious to me
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:15 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:
biffer wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:Where will the extra game against Glasgow be played? I wonder if they will test the waters in Aberdeen etc.?


If Glasgow and Edinburgh are in different divisions, they'd normally only play once. The extra game is so that we get one in Edinburgh and one in Glasgow. We're not talking about a third game.


Per this article it is a third Edinburgh v glasgow game. I assume to keep the number of games up and so the Irish and Welsh can have their derbies. myreside, scotstoun and keep murrayfield at Xmas as "neutral" venue although perhaps the opportunity to take the game north or south of central belt should not be overlooked, plus Glasgow contingent would prob not be overly happy at two games in Edinburgh

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40464201


One reading of that is that derbies, including the 1872 home and away would sit outside the conferences and not count towards them, which would make sense from the competition's integrity point of view.

There would be free weekends available. Probably international weekends.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:08 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:
biffer wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:Where will the extra game against Glasgow be played? I wonder if they will test the waters in Aberdeen etc.?


If Glasgow and Edinburgh are in different divisions, they'd normally only play once. The extra game is so that we get one in Edinburgh and one in Glasgow. We're not talking about a third game.


Per this article it is a third Edinburgh v glasgow game. I assume to keep the number of games up and so the Irish and Welsh can have their derbies. myreside, scotstoun and keep murrayfield at Xmas as "neutral" venue although perhaps the opportunity to take the game north or south of central belt should not be overlooked, plus Glasgow contingent would prob not be overly happy at two games in Edinburgh

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40464201


The article basically says it's a 13 game season. Tom English scrabbling together a quick piece and not understanding the rumours properly. He hasn't suggested any cross conference play apart from the Glasgow Edinburgh Derby. So he's talking kack.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:15 pm

joe soap wrote:
biffer wrote:
16 teams, two conferences of 8, gives 22 games (play teams in same conflict home and away, other conference once).


I was responding to BigD's suggestion of a 16 team league NON conference set up. Flawed, but at least he seems to recognise what a nonsense a conference system is


Som of the most profitable sports leagues in the world operate conference systems.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:32 pm

joe soap wrote:Travel is not irrelevant to the players or teams, far from it, and not just the significant cost.

The extra TV money being sought would be offset by extra travel costs, fewer games equals few hospitality packages etc etc. The economics are far from obvious to me


You have 1 away trip to SA every year and 2 every second year so flights and costs for 40+ going over will be pricey but not that bad. Also, if the London rumours are true Edinburgh and Glasgow will be a popular choice for a game there as there's a lot of Scots in London.

You'll have 6 home conference games, 4 non conference home games (4 with 1 vs Glasgow and 2 games at their place or 3 with 2 home fixtures against Glasgow) so 10 in total down from 11 (I think).

One hospitality match and 2 SA trips doesn't come close to the cost of doubling tv money.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:31 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:You'll have 6 home conference games, 4 non conference home games (4 with 1 vs Glasgow and 2 games at their place or 3 with 2 home fixtures against Glasgow) so 10 in total down from 11 (I think)..


6 home conf games plus 3 or 4 alternate seasons non conf games. So 9 or 10 home games. Now that is 1 or 2 less hospitality opportunity. Plus fewer match ticket sales, match day merchandise, food and drink sales, match day program ad sales: plus will sponsors pay the same for fewer days exposure, will SKY pay the same for fewer matches (and they are already retrenching).
Of course we don't know the answer to some of these which is why I said the economics are not clear.

The length of flights to SA, probably not direct, means awful travel for one game or expensive charters.

There are so many issues, all feels a bit rushed
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:00 am

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:You'll have 6 home conference games, 4 non conference home games (4 with 1 vs Glasgow and 2 games at their place or 3 with 2 home fixtures against Glasgow) so 10 in total down from 11 (I think)..


6 home conf games plus 3 or 4 alternate seasons non conf games. So 9 or 10 home games. Now that is 1 or 2 less hospitality opportunity. Plus fewer match ticket sales, match day merchandise, food and drink sales, match day program ad sales: plus will sponsors pay the same for fewer days exposure, will SKY pay the same for fewer matches (and they are already retrenching).
Of course we don't know the answer to some of these which is why I said the economics are not clear.

The length of flights to SA, probably not direct, means awful travel for one game or expensive charters.

There are so many issues, all feels a bit rushed


It'd be ten or eleven home games, 11 one season, 10 the next. One home game sacrificed every two seasons is a price I'd pay for the rumoured extra half a million quid plus per year. The finances add up easily - no way one home game is worth half a million quid of income to us!
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Frenchy on Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:08 am

I think in at least one of the big American sports each team has a game each season against the team in the same position in the other conference. This would be a relatively fair way of adding one round of fixtures.

If my description didn't make sense, I think it works like this:

Conference 1:
1 Team A
2 Team B
3 Team C
4 Team D

Conference 2:
1 Team E
2 Team F
3 Team G
4 Team H

Would lead to the round of fixtures:
A v E
B v F
C v G
D v H
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby biffer on Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:40 am

Frenchy wrote:I think in at least one of the big American sports each team has a game each season against the team in the same position in the other conference. This would be a relatively fair way of adding one round of fixtures.

If my description didn't make sense, I think it works like this:

Conference 1:
1 Team A
2 Team B
3 Team C
4 Team D

Conference 2:
1 Team E
2 Team F
3 Team G
4 Team H

Would lead to the round of fixtures:
A v E
B v F
C v G
D v H


That's correct, the NFL does this every season.
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