Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby BigD163 on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:50 am

joe soap wrote:
biffer wrote:
16 teams, two conferences of 8, gives 22 games (play teams in same conflict home and away, other conference once).


I was responding to BigD's suggestion of a 16 team league NON conference set up. Flawed, but at least he seems to recognise what a nonsense a conference system is


My thoughts were that Super Touch was better as a league prior to going to conferences and allowing for the fact that player protection will see some continually try and reduce games but also by spreading the games out a bit encouraging teams to be at full strength more often. No one wants to see teams send the kids to SA because it's a lead in fixture to the 6N camps.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby disco on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:29 pm

A quick look at some of the options for a Pro 14 setup for next season:

http://wp.me/p68WtH-6Fn
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby gowrie on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:28 pm

I didn't really want to think this was actually happening, but it seems every day there's another article about this. None of the details give me any confidence about this. Conferences can be useful, but it seems they're only used in rugby when tournaments go nuts and expand into every country they can think of.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:05 pm

gowrie wrote:I didn't really want to think this was actually happening, but it seems every day there's another article about this. None of the details give me any confidence about this. Conferences can be useful, but it seems they're only used in rugby when tournaments go nuts and expand into every country they can think of.


I don't like the conference idea either to be honest, would rather kick out the Italians.

Conferences work because of rivalries in the US but these conferences won't really have the big rivalries as the rival teams will be separated for derbies.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:37 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
gowrie wrote:I didn't really want to think this was actually happening, but it seems every day there's another article about this. None of the details give me any confidence about this. Conferences can be useful, but it seems they're only used in rugby when tournaments go nuts and expand into every country they can think of.


I don't like the conference idea either to be honest, would rather kick out the Italians.

Conferences work because of rivalries in the US but these conferences won't really have the big rivalries as the rival teams will be separated for derbies.


If you haven't already its worth reading about the formation of the current NFL. It has conferences only because it had to to prevent civil war in American Football, and American football is successful because of TV money. And was successful before the merger into the current NFL for the same reason. Its success is despite conferences - everyone wanted a league but no-one wanted go many teams or to be in division 2.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby gowrie on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:54 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
gowrie wrote:I didn't really want to think this was actually happening, but it seems every day there's another article about this. None of the details give me any confidence about this. Conferences can be useful, but it seems they're only used in rugby when tournaments go nuts and expand into every country they can think of.


I don't like the conference idea either to be honest, would rather kick out the Italians.

Conferences work because of rivalries in the US but these conferences won't really have the big rivalries as the rival teams will be separated for derbies.


If you haven't already its worth reading about the formation of the current NFL. It has conferences only because it had to to prevent civil war in American Football, and American football is successful because of TV money. And was successful before the merger into the current NFL for the same reason. Its success is despite conferences - everyone wanted a league but no-one wanted go many teams or to be in division 2.


Which doesn't explain why the NBA, MLB, and NHL have also got conferences. The setup has worked across so many sports because it allows far more teams (and their fans) to be involved at the highest level of competition, and they'd be useful if the dream of a British and Irish rugby competition ever became a reality.

And when this bloating of the Pro12 fails, it's because expanding to the opposite end of another continent is a terrible idea and no organisational tricks can save it.
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:23 pm

[quote="gowrie"]
Which doesn't explain why the NBA, MLB, and NHL have also got conferences. The setup has worked across so many sports because it allows far more teams (and their fans) to be involved at the highest level of competition, and they'd be useful if the dream of a British and Irish rugby competition ever became a reality.

And when this bloating of the Pro12 fails, it's because expanding to the opposite end of another continent is a terrible idea and no organisational tricks can save it)


All fair comment. Lots of sports want to emulate NFL type conferences. But when they work its TV money based on viewer numbers. Are they all in the US? Time zone and distance is also a factor, but the difference between the US sports conferences and pro12 is its all one country, like soccer here, just about the top team sport. SH super rugby is a shambles - we wouldn't be having this conversation if it met the basics.

Pro12 has gone for conferences because it thinks they are sexy, like NFL, and because it can't fit a proper 14 team league in. It thinks- hopes and prays- it will gains huge TV audience in SA.
I recall that when the Italians joined they had to bring a broadcaster. They did but pulled out swiftly.

A B&I league could sustain a conference system probably, but what is in it for the English - why would they share their market with us
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby K-Pac on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:29 pm

I have not seen it mentioned anywhere; but would these two teams then be eligible for the Champions Cup {should they qualify} and Challenge cup?

Does the fact they are not European clubs negate their eligibility or does the fact they are in a European League grant them eligibility?

If they are not eligible, I would assume the matches against these two teams are removed from the equation/league table to determine who finishes in the last qualifying place(s). There is the potential that the team who finishes in the last place is there by having gained points for beating these teams whereas the team in the next position might only be 1 point behind but lost against both these teams?

If it is a conference set-up, how will they determine the qualification for the champions cup?

I guess there are still a lot of questions to be answered, and it's it early days yet but given that it is not too long until the season is under way these things need to be answered quickly
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby joe soap on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:14 pm

K-Pac wrote:I have not seen it mentioned anywhere; but would these two teams then be eligible for the Champions Cup {should they qualify} and Challenge cup?

Does the fact they are not European clubs negate their eligibility or does the fact they are in a European League grant them eligibility?


I think the ERCC places are allocated to leagues not unions, so the Saffer teams would be eligible - unless the French or English clubs object I suppose. Or the RFU blow up if the proposal is for the Saffers to base themselves in England at least some of the time.
Have to rename the ERCC I guess
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby The Feral Goat on Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:31 am

So Cheetahs officially out of super rugby but have agreement with SA rugby on their future in an exciting international competition.

All to be revealed today?
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby The Feral Goat on Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:59 am

"The board of the Toyota Cheetahs has reviewed the team’s future and is extremely positive about the prospect of appearing in alternative international competitions. It will be an exciting challenge for our players, supporters and commercial partners and will be the start of a new chapter for rugby both in our region and in South Africa. Also, it will allow the Toyota Cheetahs to carve out a new and prominent place on the rugby map in South Africa as well as internationally," he said.

The announcement was made before a Special General Meeting of SA Rugby in Cape Town on Friday which will formally confirm South Africa’s four participants in the competition next season. The meeting has been called to determine SA’s entrants to fall in line with a SANZAAR decision to reduce the competition’s participants from 18 to 15 teams from next season. The new structure will comprise four teams from South Africa, five from New Zealand, four from Australia and one each from Argentina and Japan.

An announcement on those opportunities for the Cheetahs is expected shortly.

Friday’s General Meeting will continue as scheduled as SA Rugby still have the constitutional responsibility to confirm SA’s entrants in the competition.

The Southern Kings will also explore multiple other international competition opportunities and an announcement on those opportunities is expected shortly.

Andre Rademan, president of the EPRU, said: “It has been a roller coaster ride for the franchise for a number of seasons but there is now a clear and viable way forward for rugby in the Eastern Cape to build on the foundations that have been laid – particularly in the past season.

“We have enjoyed Vodacom Super Rugby but the chance to test ourselves against different opposition in different conditions is a mouth-watering one. We are therefore not opposed to joining new competitions. With all stakeholders pulling in the same direction we can bring success and excitement to rugby in the Eastern Cape.”
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby royc on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:14 pm

Not wildly smitten with the rumoured version of a conference system. There are better ways of doing conferences which we already use in fact in a couple of our domestic leagues.

The expected first stage is fair enough, 2 pools of 7, play each competitor home and away =12 games.

But thereafter, big change: the top 4 from each pool go into a new Pool A, playing home and away against the top 4 from the other pool = 8 games, total 20. That would be a very competitive 'league' and command a high media price.

The bottom 3 from each pool go into a new Pool B, playing home and away against the bottom 3 from the other pool = 6 games, total 18. The advantage for the lower teams is that they have a much better chance of actually winning sometimes, rather than being thrashed weekly by the likes of Munster, Leinster, Glasgow etc.

In the first season, that bottom 6 would likely include the two Italian teams, most probably the two South African ones unless they recruit some big name players pdq, Dragons and one out of Connacht, Cardiff and Edinburgh.

Most of the derbies would happen anyway under this set-up, any that didn't could be played as standalone fixtures outside the league.

If two US franchises join the following season, then everyone would have 20 games, which is probably the optimum to reduce fixture congestion.

Would it effectively create two divisions? Well, for half the season, it effectively would, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

The other element I dislike is the pools being based on national allocations, as in 2 Irish, 2 Welsh etc. If you want equally competitive pools, you'd just allocate the teams in the order they finished last season. This would turn out as:

Pool A
1 - Munster
4 - Ospreys
5 - Ulster
8 - Connacht
9 - Edinburgh
12 - Zebre
+ - South Africa 1

Pool B
2 - Leinster
3 - Scarlets
6 - Glasgow
7 - Cardiff
10 - Treviso
11 - Dragons
+ - South Africa 2
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby disco on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:32 pm

It had been rumoured that the announcement would be the 18th of July but South African press are now suggesting it could be as soon as this Saturday (15th July). Here are 5 key questions that need answered:

https://topofthemoongw.wordpress.com/2017/07/11/5-questions-for-the-pro-12-to-answer/
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby djsxv on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:29 pm

I assume that this will have repercussions for entry to the European cups? I can't imagine the English or French clubs wanting to give up any of their places.

Anyone know?
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Re: Cheetahs invited to join Pro12

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:52 pm

djsxv wrote:I assume that this will have repercussions for entry to the European cups? I can't imagine the English or French clubs wanting to give up any of their places.

Anyone know?


If SuperSport pay for TV rights they'll allow them in don't worry.
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