Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:57 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:I cant see that happening, if Cockers throws in a bunch of kids and they get hammered where does he go then? It wont help the players, the club or the coaches to do that.

Last night was an embarrassment, but bear in mind the 2 previous weeks ( and the first 20 mins) saw great improvements. Yes bleed some of the young players in but we cant be knee jerk and throw half the squad out. Berghan for example was actually playing quite well last night, carried well and had th scrum going forward.

Yes we need changes but it cant be a complete revolution. Bear in mind the players you want to bin now would have been the players you would have brought in a couple of years ago with the same theory, what makes you think the youngsters are good enough to make the grade?


Is getting a spanking at the Scarlets any worse than losing to Treviso at home? Not for me. Cockers goes 'okay young team, that's the level you've got to be, now lets come in on Monday and work so we can get to that level' . What does he say after losing to Treviso at home other than a load of expletives.

I don't know if the youngsters will make the grade. I do know the current crop have annually failed to make the grade though. Two wins again bad teams is the minimum imo. Berghan was okay yesterday I agree but okay in a team that loses to Treviso is still pish. Imagine Glasgow losing to Treviso at Scotstoun, nobody would come close to pass marks.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby biffer on Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:43 pm

macdone wrote:Our recruitment is shocking. Rasolea, Mata, Weir, K Bryce, Marfo, Harries - wtf. Meanwhile, Glasgow get Huw Jones, Gibbins, Masaga. They add Matawalu and Jackson to half backs that are already miles better than ours.

Unfortunately CdP has lost it and needs replaced. Ford and McInally need dropped, Bradbury too.


Do you honestly think that Matawalu and Jackson would have made a difference last night?
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby robdinsdale on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:18 pm

FFS. We've got the youngest team I can remember ever having and folk think chucking in another even younger bunch of laddies is the answer.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby gowrie on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:29 pm

robdinsdale wrote:FFS. We've got the youngest team I can remember ever having and folk think chucking in another even younger bunch of laddies is the answer.


Don't see how last night's team qualifies as young, the average age was nearly 27, add in the bench and it goes over 27.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:14 pm

gowrie wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:FFS. We've got the youngest team I can remember ever having and folk think chucking in another even younger bunch of laddies is the answer.


Don't see how last night's team qualifies as young, the average age was nearly 27, add in the bench and it goes over 27.


Pretty sure Glasgow have a younger side out there now then we did last night, certainly have more players under the age of 25.

It wasn't a young team. That excuse doesn't wash.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby Frenchy on Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:30 pm

Tries here (UK only): http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/41292162

Dean's first is a cracker.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:04 am

Not anything to do with Friday but defending teams getting the benefit of uncontested scrums due to a yellow in a nonsense. Really annoys me. For as long as uncontested scrums have been a thing refs don't referee back rows, 9s or the backs offside line correctly and can actually help the defending team more than it penalises them. Even with the trial it still wont make the refs referee it properly.

I am not going to get on the back of a 22 year old captain too much, he will learn. Cochrane, Nel and several other senior pro's could have said something.

We knew this was a long term change, including a changing of the guard in some respects. RC needs to hold some players accountable and make changes. There is a need to freshen up some positions, get one of the young 9's involved, Baggot on the bench, McCallum. CHH/Carmichael, Miller if CdP needs to go and lose bulk.

We really need to stop comparing this team, recruitment etc to where Glasgow are now. Lineen started the Glasgow revolution years ago. The currently are easily top 6 in the league, regular play off contenders, competitive in the Champions cup and have probably an extra 500k in budget (was £300k last year). Jackson and Matawalu will be team friendly deals as they couldn't find suitable deals elsewhere.

There needs to be some hard decisions made on players futures and recruitment is hopefully starting to identify possible signings for next year to replace some.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:19 pm

Agree with BigD on the recruitment. We also need to remember we are a bottom 4 Pro12 team playing in the Challenge cup, not top 4 and playing champions cup and will attract players accordingly. Just need to look at where some of our players have moved on to eg Manu to Treviso, Beard to Dragons we are recruiting in the same pool as them not Glasgow, Leinster and Munster etc. Fruean should really have been out of our league but we have been flexible with his RWC aspirations, which I suspect many clubs would not be, and hopefully that will pay off for us. Otherwise we have to get more out of the current group and develop our own younger players. The huge frustration is it the majority of the issue still appears to be mental be that in decision making, attitude, resilience or concentration as the players have demonstrated that they have the physical skills to win games.

For me Friday was similar to Zebre last season, then we were very poor before we somehow got into a winning position but then switched off thinking job done, Friday two earlyish scores comfortable lead and switch off again and the game is gone.

While I can see, if budget allowed, why clearing out the squad may be appealing I think we would struggle to replace with players of the same rugby ability (see Solomons recruitment for us) so I guess the question is would a squad of players with lesser rugby ability but with better mentality achieve better results than the current squad of arguably better players with poor mentality.

Moreover, as has been noted it is still early days under Cockerill that is only 3 competitive matches and while tougher matches lie ahead Friday could well end up being one of the more important results of the season if it serves as the wake up call to all that is required. If we had lost to a better team in a similar manner I don’t think the underlying issues would necessarily have been quite so clear. There is still long enough left in the season to make amends and it needs to starts this week with a big performance against the Scarlets.

Lastly on Friday Ritchie and McInally were missing for the first time this season (and I know McInally has his critics for a couple of wayward throws) for me they have been two of the players that have really set the tempo for the team so far. Both have a high work rate, Ritchie more so, their work in defence has been really aggressive getting to the breakdown quickly, slowing the oppo ball and making the tackles has been notable and both have been carrying well in attack and clearing out. Obviously there is no excuse for the others not doing the same in their absence and it could be coincidence that we performed as we did when they were not playing but they have been two that have been pretty strong performers in the first four matches easier for others to follow when one or both have already got us on the front foot.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby royc on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:43 pm

Gowrie is right about the team v Benetton not being all that young. While it looks a young-ish squad on paper - average age 25.7 (backs 24.6, forwards 26.5), the team on Friday was a bit longer in the tooth, average 27 (backs 25.1, forwards 28.4). There were only 4 U24 players, Kinghorn, Hoyland, Dean and Bradbury. However, that is probably much of a muchness with other Pro 14 teams and younger than some.

It may well be that Cockerill is giving his most experienced players every chance to try to get the season off to a good start and they will be given a good length of rope. Equally, some of the new young recruits won't be ready to step up yet, Miller and CHH for instance are both about 2 stones light, Fenton needs a lot of catch-up game time at club level, etc.

Nonetheless, some fresh younger legs and drive could add some impetus. Those I'd like to see get a shot in the near future, obviously not all at the same time, are:

Graham on the right wing, with Hoyland on the bench for cover
Dean obviously, though eventually at I/Centre
Kinghorn tried out on the left wing
Galbraith and Fraser getting a chance off the bench
McCallum starting at loosehead
Carmichael at lock 4
Ritchie at 6
Bradbury at 8 or on the bench
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby macdone on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:28 pm

Of course our recruitment is p*sh and of course we should compare ourselves to Glasgow - we have the same owner and the same guy recruiting for both teams. We have become the Connacht of Scottish rugby (although they are better than us at recruiting developing players).

It's the recruitment of young \ developing players that's most worrying. We could really use Jack Cosgrove right now. We should have snapped up Vellacot, Eadie and Steele, not to mention Huw Jones. There was a time when we could have signed Duncan Taylor but that ship has sailed - we were too slow.

We have ended up giving contracts to Fraser and Galbraith, neither of whom would have got contracts for a mid table Championship team down south. Meanwhile George Horne and Paddy Kelly are sitting twiddling their thumbs as Glasgow´s 4th choice rather than playing in our first team.

I understand Scott Johnson feels he has to maintain Glasgow´s incredible success. But letting Edinburgh slide won't be good in the long run.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:10 pm

macdone wrote:Of course our recruitment is p*sh and of course we should compare ourselves to Glasgow - we have the same owner and the same guy recruiting for both teams. We have become the Connacht of Scottish rugby (although they are better than us at recruiting developing players).

It's the recruitment of young \ developing players that's most worrying. We could really use Jack Cosgrove right now. We should have snapped up Vellacot, Eadie and Steele, not to mention Huw Jones. There was a time when we could have signed Duncan Taylor but that ship has sailed - we were too slow.

We have ended up giving contracts to Fraser and Galbraith, neither of whom would have got contracts for a mid table Championship team down south. Meanwhile George Horne and Paddy Kelly are sitting twiddling their thumbs as Glasgow´s 4th choice rather than playing in our first team.

I understand Scott Johnson feels he has to maintain Glasgow´s incredible success. But letting Edinburgh slide won't be good in the long run.


But for the points BigD and others have said we're not on a level playing field - same owner, same money but a world of difference in terms of where the clubs are. If I am a rugby player with no affinity for either team, I go to Glasgow. That is where the comparison falls apart unfortunately, it isn't a level playing field competitively and culturally. Also Johnson isn't the only scout, Rennie has had a huge say in recruitment over there.

Nonsensical point about Galbraith and Fraser compared to Kelly and Horne. Horne is a year older than Fraser and had the sevens, granted, but neither have done anything pro level. Worth noting, Fraser was injured at LS whereas Horne just wasn't picked. Notwithstanding sevens is a different sport and Fraser had the better under20 career. Kelly a year older than Galbraith and the Chiel might know more detail but neither set the Richmond heather alight. There is absolutely no way of knowing how their careers will pan out.

Huw Jones is a tough point as off the back of that deal we got Bennett, I'd rather we had Jones sure but beggars can't be choosers. Vellacot turned Glasgow down and when he's doing well at his boyhood club so very doubtful he'd want to join Edinburgh. He also might not want to commit to Scotland so early? Eadie will be on good coin at Saints as he replaced Picamoles/we didn't need a back row. Not sure when we could've signed Taylor, he's always been rated at Sarries. I agree on Steele and Hutchinson is the other exile I'd seriously look at. But the better ones we've seen like Eastgate there is a question if they want to commit to Scotland so early.

Glasgow got out of their malaise playing these young guns who would do anything to be success. Problem is we play established pros who don't mind losing annually to Italians. Glasgow had a 19 year old for them at 6 and we're talking about why Miller isn't big enough for pro rugby .. That is the difference between the clubs fundamentally. Over there they put faith in young players whereas here it's the opposite.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby joe soap on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:31 pm

macdone wrote:Of course our recruitment is p*sh and of course we should compare ourselves to Glasgow - we have the same owner and the same guy recruiting for both teams. We have become the Connacht of Scottish rugby (although they are better than us at recruiting developing players).

It's the recruitment of young \ developing players that's most worrying. We could really use Jack Cosgrove right now. We should have snapped up Vellacot, Eadie and Steele, not to mention Huw Jones. There was a time when we could have signed Duncan Taylor but that ship has sailed - we were too slow.

We have ended up giving contracts to Fraser and Galbraith, neither of whom would have got contracts for a mid table Championship team down south. Meanwhile George Horne and Paddy Kelly are sitting twiddling their thumbs as Glasgow´s 4th choice rather than playing in our first team.

I understand Scott Johnson feels he has to maintain Glasgow´s incredible success. But letting Edinburgh slide won't be good in the long run.


I'm sure you feel better after that, but fair play its pish on every level.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby joe soap on Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:43 pm

BigD163 wrote:I am not going to get on the back of a 22 year old captain too much, he will learn. .


agree, at least he should get some space to learn. He just might have reasonably hoped to get some sensible advice when they were own to 13 with uncontested scrums from the player with 3,000 appearances for Edinburgh, 100 plus for Scotland having captained both multiple times) and a B&I Lion was still on the park. The player who admitted in the press last week that Cockerill had pretty much told him to extract the digit and show some leadership.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:29 pm

And you know he didn't get this info how??

I said earlier, with the amount of water boys coming on the pitch and number of times we went to the corner it was a clear tactic, there was water on when the decision to go to the corner was made. Blaming individual players for something which they may have had nothing to do with is a very strange thing to do. If Bradbury is a strong character, and I assume he is, then he may well have taken the advice of others and done his own thing, if we score he made a heroic decision, if not we lose, that's leadership. Hindsight is great, with hingsight we should have gone for goal with 5 mins left and come back looking for the try. However we did look like scoring, so a choice was made.

The positive for him is that if he does make a mistake it wont matter as some folk will find a way to blame Ford!
Last edited by dolf_lundgren on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby disco on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:37 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
macdone wrote:Of course our recruitment is p*sh and of course we should compare ourselves to Glasgow - we have the same owner and the same guy recruiting for both teams. We have become the Connacht of Scottish rugby (although they are better than us at recruiting developing players).

It's the recruitment of young \ developing players that's most worrying. We could really use Jack Cosgrove right now. We should have snapped up Vellacot, Eadie and Steele, not to mention Huw Jones. There was a time when we could have signed Duncan Taylor but that ship has sailed - we were too slow.

We have ended up giving contracts to Fraser and Galbraith, neither of whom would have got contracts for a mid table Championship team down south. Meanwhile George Horne and Paddy Kelly are sitting twiddling their thumbs as Glasgow´s 4th choice rather than playing in our first team.

I understand Scott Johnson feels he has to maintain Glasgow´s incredible success. But letting Edinburgh slide won't be good in the long run.


But for the points BigD and others have said we're not on a level playing field - same owner, same money but a world of difference in terms of where the clubs are. If I am a rugby player with no affinity for either team, I go to Glasgow. That is where the comparison falls apart unfortunately, it isn't a level playing field competitively and culturally. Also Johnson isn't the only scout, Rennie has had a huge say in recruitment over there.

Nonsensical point about Galbraith and Fraser compared to Kelly and Horne. Horne is a year older than Fraser and had the sevens, granted, but neither have done anything pro level. Worth noting, Fraser was injured at LS whereas Horne just wasn't picked. Notwithstanding sevens is a different sport and Fraser had the better under20 career. Kelly a year older than Galbraith and the Chiel might know more detail but neither set the Richmond heather alight. There is absolutely no way of knowing how their careers will pan out.

Huw Jones is a tough point as off the back of that deal we got Bennett, I'd rather we had Jones sure but beggars can't be choosers. Vellacot turned Glasgow down and when he's doing well at his boyhood club so very doubtful he'd want to join Edinburgh. He also might not want to commit to Scotland so early? Eadie will be on good coin at Saints as he replaced Picamoles/we didn't need a back row. Not sure when we could've signed Taylor, he's always been rated at Sarries. I agree on Steele and Hutchinson is the other exile I'd seriously look at. But the better ones we've seen like Eastgate there is a question if they want to commit to Scotland so early.

Glasgow got out of their malaise playing these young guns who would do anything to be success. Problem is we play established pros who don't mind losing annually to Italians. Glasgow had a 19 year old for them at 6 and we're talking about why Miller isn't big enough for pro rugby .. That is the difference between the clubs fundamentally. Over there they put faith in young players whereas here it's the opposite.

Agree with much of what you say but on Horne - he played 15 times for London Scottish and was probably one of the most successful loanees we had down there. He is though a late convert to scrum half so while he has more highlight reel stuff I'd say Fraser is a more complete 9. Long-term they will be playing quite different styles. Fraser (and Charlie Shiel) may well be a better fit for what Edinburgh need over the next 2-3 seasons.
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