Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15)

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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby macdone on Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:21 am

joe soap wrote:
EWT spoons wrote:Sorry but I think there is a lot of underestimating how important a good half back pairing is, they are the pivots to the team. If you have a 9&10 who are poor then chances are the team are going to be playing badly.

We have a good to very good set of forwards, granted some of them still need to come back from injury, but a FR of Dickinson/Dell/Sutherland (when one of them is fit) alongside Ford/McInally and Nel/Berghan is a very good front row. locks of Toolis who was in the team of the tournament last year (I believe) and Gilco or Bresler is a strong second row.
Our back row is still young, but Ritchie is showing real promise, Watson & Hardie are both very good and Bradbury whilst possibly not playing at his best just now has shown previously that he can be a very good player.

That set of forwards should not be getting dominated or overpowered, and if you have a half decent 9 & 10 combo behind them, then that would be a great platform for our attack. However what we have is a 9 who has lost anything resembling form and a 10 who has barely ever played well.

I know the biggest challenge is finding players who want to come to Edinburgh, because we're a bottom 4 team, but there has to be someone out there better than Weir & Tovey.


no underestimating how important half backs are at all. They are the key pivots when they have something to pivot with. The idea that a magic 10 or 9 can win games in modern professional rugby without good ball presented quickly is delusional. Maybe in amateur rugby, but doubt that these days as well on its top levels
You say Edinburgh have a very good set of forwards. This is demonstrably nonsense, built on a myth a couple of season ago when it was a dominant scrum and decent maul. Where did Edinburgh finish in the league that season?You say they should not be dominated, yet around the park they are, week in week out. They were slow round the park back then and they are slow round the park now, delivering slow ball when they are not too slow to prevent a turnover. You can say there are some forwards who have ability, but certainly not a good pack.

Better than what we have at half back required of course, but lets not pretend the other issues are not much much bigger.


Correct. We got to a stage where our pack was merely competitive but we haven't built on that in the last two years. We lost Coman, Roddy Grant and (likely) Dickinson, while CdP has lost it. That's a fair bit of leadership to replace.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:12 am

macdone wrote:Ruaridh Jackson and George Horne would improve us as would Huw Jones but the SRU can't run 2 successful sides simultaneously. They have committed to Glasgow for obvious reasons but it's killing us.

We need Cockerill to stand up for Edinburgh and demand more from our owners. It's not acceptable to keep doing people like Hodge and Weir favours. And the standard of our big money overseas signings isn't acceptable either. CdP, Burleigh, Rasolea and Mata have to go if they aren't going to contribute.


When Matawalu returned to Glasgow there was the opportunity to take a player from there, most likely Horne, which Cockerill refused. From what I hear Fraser leaving has changed things and there may be a move soon.

I'm not sure if Jackson would improve us, it's a long time since I saw him play at 10. He also likes to play flat, loose style, not something I think we are trying to do.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby zt1903 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:22 am

macdone wrote:Ruaridh Jackson and George Horne would improve us as would Huw Jones but the SRU can't run 2 successful sides simultaneously. They have committed to Glasgow for obvious reasons but it's killing us.

We need Cockerill to stand up for Edinburgh and demand more from our owners. It's not acceptable to keep doing people like Hodge and Weir favours. And the standard of our big money overseas signings isn't acceptable either. CdP, Burleigh, Rasolea and Mata have to go if they aren't going to contribute.


Ah, the old “it’s the SRU's fault” gambit.

It’s pish. Both sides have the same budget. One of those sides even has the bonus of access to the national team's facilities, and it’s not Glasgow.

Truth is we’ve been coached badly and recruited indifferently. Cockerill can't turn that round in a month.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby gunneria on Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:58 am

Talking about individual players is ridiculous when the general malaise affecting the team pulls everyone down. Weir for one has sometimes looked like the only player that actually cared, on more than one occasion, and I'd much rather have that.
Our much vaunted pack is only good on paper not on the field of play. It has not dominated any other team for a long time and has taken quite a few spankings. Get that side in order and we 'may' see another team.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby BigD163 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:24 am

macdone wrote:Ruaridh Jackson and George Horne would improve us as would Huw Jones but the SRU can't run 2 successful sides simultaneously. They have committed to Glasgow for obvious reasons but it's killing us.

We need Cockerill to stand up for Edinburgh and demand more from our owners. It's not acceptable to keep doing people like Hodge and Weir favours. And the standard of our big money overseas signings isn't acceptable either. CdP, Burleigh, Rasolea and Mata have to go if they aren't going to contribute.


Glasgow use their budget far better. And whilst the weeg have signed Jones, we have signed Bennett and Fruean.

Glasgow spread their budget around, thinking of where their money is being spent compared to ours. We have 3 LHPs on a decent wedge, 2 hookers who signed contracts as either a seasoned international or current international, Nel (rightfully), Bresler was a signing from SR so wont be cheap, GG will be on a wedge, Hardie, Watson CdP, Burleigh, Rasolea, Weir, I bet Tovey isn't on peanuts for what we get in return. They gave Fowles and Kennedy new contracts when they should have been punted.

The brunt of Glasgows money is spent of their 1st choice 23, and they supplement it through a squad of well coached cheaper alternatives.

Glasgow get marginally more money, and rightly so but that is not the main difference.

I am not convinced Jackson would improve us that much, he hasn't played well at 10 for a long time. He only signed for the weeg because no one else wanted him and they lost two full backs to injury. His best performances for Scotland came from 15.

Johnson/Petrie/Cockerill need to get the axe out and find away to reboot the squad and supplement the side.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby BigD163 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:26 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:
When Matawalu returned to Glasgow there was the opportunity to take a player from there, most likely Horne, which Cockerill refused. From what I hear Fraser leaving has changed things and there may be a move soon.

I'm not sure if Jackson would improve us, it's a long time since I saw him play at 10. He also likes to play flat, loose style, not something I think we are trying to do.


I wonder why that has changed, was Fraser seen as being ahead of Kennedy? If so it makes the 2 year deal he got even more baffling.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby royc on Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:49 am

I wonder if the reason for Edinburgh's sometimes indifferent and often poor performances is not more simple.

We have a fairly heavy forward pack designed and conditioned to win set piece in general and scrums in particular. Solomons' instinct anyway was probably for a big South African-style pack, which dovetailed with the needs of the SRU national coaches over the years, due to most of the big international forwards being housed at Edinburgh. The consequences follow.

The first is that the forwards are rather slow around the park, as they are not conditioned for speed and seem to have no training or ability to play a faster off-loading game, as Glasgow for instance played so well on Friday night. If they are slow to support the ball carrier, slow to arrive at the tackle area, poor at offloading and passing out of the tackle, it is because they were never configured to play that kind of game and are physically off the pace to do so.

The result and second consequence is that, as well as being turned over frequently and coughing up penalties for holding in the tackle, coupled with the odd fact that the scrum is not as dominant or proficient as it should be on paper, the ball they deliver to the backs is frequently oh so slow. This handicaps what the backs can do, as the oppos are all primed, in position and ready to pounce.

A third consequence is that too large a proportion of the budget has to be spent on retaining this international pack, leaving the backs being recruited on a very limited and I would think well inadequate budget. The SRU has tried to improve things this term by stepping up to get Bennett/Fruean, which is very welcome and overdue, and some good younger players are emerging, but there is a long way to go before our backs strike fear into any opponent.

I wonder if the above consequences do not precede and indeed fuel the alleged malaise? Yes, the international forwards have been in something of a comfort zone, which Cockerill seems to have in his sights, and some of the players could try harder. But for the players, being beaten for speed in the loose, being isolated and turned over, being up against more mobile attacking players, playing against more talented back lines, must induce a certain degree of futility, lack of self-belief and loss of self-confidence. Being in a losing team is not much fun.

I have a feeling that much of the malaise would evaporate if

1) The forwards are conditioned and trained to play a faster, more mobile offloading game, which means getting a few of them into better physical shape to do so and the whole lot of them playing a more skilful game

2) Some of the international forwards are moved on at the end of term, 2 or 3 look like they need reinvigorated by playing in the AP or T14, which would let some younger players come through and additionally release some money to spread over the backs

3) The training of the backs in attack is improved radically. There are many specialist coaches and consultants around who can be hired in to teach specific skills, which a Scottish coach of Hodge's era would be less familiar with.

The criticism of the half backs I feel misses the target. Weir and Fowles both try very hard and give it their best shot, very often scrambling to handle slow ball and doing some good things. The problem is that neither or them, nor Tovey, offer much of an attacking threat, so the backs play is predictable and the oppos can wrap up the centres. I think Edinburgh needs to look at bringing in a good attacking 9 and 10 and letting one of the existing crew go. By all means give Baggott and Galbraith a shot off the bench at 10 and Shiels at 9, but I am not overly optimistic that any of them would provide the necessary attacking flair and zip.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby zt1903 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:04 pm

I understand where you’re coming from Roy and whilst this may have been true of our play against Scarlets I don’t really recognise this as having been the issue with our forwards over the last few seasons. Guys like Dickinson, Nel, Dell, Bresler, Toolis, du Preez and Watson have actually all been terrific in the loose.

It feels far more the case that our forwards have put us in the position to win games but the backs have been unable to execute. The tendency for our 9s to slow play down by meerkating and taking a couple of extra steps before executing a rubbish box kick that no one chases has little to do with our pack. The tendency of our backs to go from side to side with no invention and no decent lines has little to do with our pack either.

Be interested as to whether disco has a statto’s view on this.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:01 pm

Feels like we are going around in circles for much of this. None of us really know what the confidence and levels of application in training are so we are all guessing form what we see from our own viewpoint, also as we have favourites and players we don't like it clouds judgement.

What I would say is more important is if we have the right man coaching to make the decisions on who is good enough and what style of rugby we want to play. Personally I wasn't 100 sold on Cockers but I think he is probably the best option we ae going to have and if anyone is going to snap players out of a malaise for whatever reason then he is as good as anyone. He wont have us playing champagne rugby like Glasgow as that's not his thing but he needs to make is very hard to beat firstly then turn in some winning performances.

Other than that we are just all irrelevantly gibbering!
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby royc on Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:37 pm

zt1903 wrote:I understand where you’re coming from Roy and whilst this may have been true of our play against Scarlets I don’t really recognise this as having been the issue with our forwards over the last few seasons. Guys like Dickinson, Nel, Dell, Bresler, Toolis, du Preez and Watson have actually all been terrific in the loose.


Good in the loose in close encounters is one thing, fast enough to provide close support to the ball carrier and get to the breakdown in time is quite another! (As are the ability to offload at speed and pass out of the tackle, which do not register too highly on the forwards playlist). Of those mentioned, Toolis and Bresler are a yard or two off the pace to support a break and Du Preez, Gilchrist and Nel all look well out of shape on the mobility stakes.Watson can make a fast break and Ritchie and Bradbury aren't too bad, but if nobody can keep up with them and provide support, it all comes to nowt.

I think that Edinburgh forwards lose mobility and skill over time, it is hard to think of any of the regulars who have become faster and more skilful over recent seasons. I would deduce that the reason for that, as said, is that the main emphasis is on having a strong set-piece rather than a mobile, off-loading pack and the training and conditioning is focused on the former, which is somewhat at odds with the latter. Carmichael, McCallum, Ritchie etc may show a turn of pace now, but wait until they get bulked up and ground down to the set-piece game, I doubt the pace and mobility will survive!

A team needs to be able to do both the strong set-piece and the faster, more mobile game, which involves a degree of compromise on weight, conditioning and training. Edinburgh are not really at the races on the latter at the moment and I think are rather stuck in the past. I don't envy the size of the task Cockerill and Grant face, but feel it has to be faced nonetheless.

And I don't think views on it are necessarily 'gibbering', thought the point of a forum was to let people express their views.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:50 pm

royc wrote:
zt1903 wrote:I understand where you’re coming from Roy and whilst this may have been true of our play against Scarlets I don’t really recognise this as having been the issue with our forwards over the last few seasons. Guys like Dickinson, Nel, Dell, Bresler, Toolis, du Preez and Watson have actually all been terrific in the loose.




A team needs to be able to do both the strong set-piece and the faster, more mobile game, which involves a degree of compromise on weight, conditioning and training. Edinburgh are not really at the races on the latter at the moment and I think are rather stuck in the past. I don't envy the size of the task Cockerill and Grant face, but feel it has to be faced nonetheless.

And I don't think views on it are necessarily 'gibbering', thought the point of a forum was to let people express their views.


The holy grail, it is quite rare than many teams manage that. Glasgow for all they were brilliant the other night struggled in the set piece and will likely be bullied in the euro games. Toulon spent a fortune on players and coaches and it is arguable that they never mastered the offloading high paced game. So you are right but to expect that at this stage is a bit much. It is also a tactical thing, which you then need to have the players to perform, you cant just switch from one to the other in a week, yes we probably do have the wrong players to play a fast and loose game, so what do you do, change the game and swap all the players? Or adjust the game plan to suit what we have?

It is all gibbering, yes its all about opinions but we seem to be going round in circles and lots of statements being made e.g so and so isn't working hard enough in training, his mind isn't right, he lacks confidence etc, when we are only summising that, none of us actually know what is happening.

All we know is we have played 2 pretty poor games in a row and hopefully it will change, the detail we are guessing.

There is also pre-conceptions, I really don't rate Harries, yet some will say he scores tries, I think Ford is hgely underrated, and some would take his contract off him now. that's opinions which are fine, but it is pointless making assumptions as to what does or doesn't happen in training.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby adi1314 on Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:13 pm

The 2 things that stuck in my mind from the Glasgow & Edinburgh games were, in the Glasgow game when Cummings scored (running a support line), Swinson and Allan were right behind him and in the Edinburgh game McInally dropped the kick-off under no pressure. But we all agree Edinburgh aren't Glasgow. I thought that summed up both sides.

Edinburgh have improved this season and I would say mainly in defensive situations, going forward everyone looks scared of making a mistake. Cardiff away was a surprise, Dragons were poor and the late scores glossed over an average performance. Treviso was poor after getting into a commanding position early and then not killing them off, and at the end not being able to score vs 13 men. Scarlets was ok in 1st half away from home, and game over at 14 men versus their expansive game.

Professional sport is a game of inches and small percentages, I think a lot of this is down to confidence. RC is not IMHO the sort of coach to instil confidence, fear yes.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby royc on Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:18 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:
The holy grail, it is quite rare than many teams manage that. Glasgow for all they were brilliant the other night struggled in the set piece and will likely be bullied in the euro games. Toulon spent a fortune on players and coaches and it is arguable that they never mastered the offloading high paced game. So you are right but to expect that at this stage is a bit much. It is also a tactical thing, which you then need to have the players to perform, you cant just switch from one to the other in a week, yes we probably do have the wrong players to play a fast and loose game, so what do you do, change the game and swap all the players? Or adjust the game plan to suit what we have?


Glasgow can actually field a much bigger pack if they need to, with Kebble and Fagerson in the front row and Peterson, Alainu'ese and 19-stone Vunisa. They are all much heavier than their Embra counterparts, giving them the option to play one way or t'other as the situation requires.

Edinburgh don't need to swap all the players to play a more mobile game, they need to re-define what they want the forwards to do. I would bet that if Toolis, Bresler etc were at Glasgow, they would soon be back to their mobile shape and form. It is the Edinburgh set-up that is turning once-mobile players into heavier, slower ones. Grant is the forwards coach and was a fast breakaway, I have some hopes that he may develop the forwards in a different direction.

I don't think anyone is really guessing about what happens in training. How you train is generally how you play and Edinburgh's style is consistent enough to spot which bits they're not working too much on in training.

Anyway, enough on this, except to say that don't complain anyone when Edinburgh get turned over, give away penalties for holding on, leave the ball-carrier isolated and can't offload to save their lives, that is clearly the height of our ambitions for the team and we better not challenge the weary status quo!
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:13 pm

BigD163 wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
When Matawalu returned to Glasgow there was the opportunity to take a player from there, most likely Horne, which Cockerill refused. From what I hear Fraser leaving has changed things and there may be a move soon.

I'm not sure if Jackson would improve us, it's a long time since I saw him play at 10. He also likes to play flat, loose style, not something I think we are trying to do.


I wonder why that has changed, was Fraser seen as being ahead of Kennedy? If so it makes the 2 year deal he got even more baffling.


Don't buy that for a second, especially when Glasgow could be 2 9s down during internationals AND they're talking up Matawalu as a winger. Also, the club can't have been relying on Fraser as they didn't show any interest in playing him.

Hastings wasn't mentioned in their Champions Cup squad, a six month loan for him would be grand.
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Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby joe soap on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:07 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:What I would say is more important is if we have the right man coaching to make the decisions on who is good enough and what style of rugby we want to play. Personally I wasn't 100 sold on Cockers but I think he is probably the best option we ae going to have and if anyone is going to snap players out of a malaise for whatever reason then he is as good as anyone. He wont have us playing champagne rugby like Glasgow as that's not his thing but he needs to make is very hard to beat firstly then turn in some winning performances.


some might not like this but he shouldn't try to get Edinburgh playing champagne rugby. He doesn't have the players to do that; its daft to try and make players play a way they are not cut out for; he has no record of coaching in that way (indeed could be said Leicester's attempts ended in abysmal failure).

But he has a hard, winners mentality Perhaps this (which again some may not like) is a start of trying to make the players really see themselves as underdogs, hard done by, and with chips on their shoulders The world against Edinburgh Rugby, everyone is against us and we need to scrap every second of every day to get any reward and recognition. Win, just win, who cares how, be awkward and uncompromising to play against.

I'd be happy with that
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-n ... cockerill/
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