Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15)

RaboDirect Pro12 & Heineken Match Discussion, Referee Retribution, and Player Powwow

Moderators: pedro52, chappo, Ron, Loops

Forum rules
The Edinburgh Rugby Supporters Club is run by fans for fans. Please keep your comments on topic and treat other posters with respect.

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby royc on Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:36 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
royc wrote:
Gilchrist was decent first two games, not a fitness thing there just had a stinker yesterday. He looks a bit too big rather than dynamic though.


He does look big, doesn't he? I don't understand that, he is listed as 18 stone 1, which, if accurate, is not excessive for a big 6'7" lock. He's actually the same weight as Bresler, Jonny Gray and Toolis and they all seem pretty mobile, whereas GG was about the last man to arrive at the breakdown yesterday. If he is not carrying some niggle from his injury, the problem must be either e for effort/lack of or f for fitness/lack of. Maybe he's put on a bit of surplus weight while he was out

Either way, off to the fitness and application training camp with him!
royc
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 8:52 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Jockybadger on Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:13 pm

Thanks Friday Night Lights,

Didn't realise the Finlay Christie information.

100% agree re Baggott, strange one.
Jockybadger
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:46 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby joe soap on Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:27 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Our protection and presentation of the ball in rucks was terrible, we just didn't get close enough to the ball carrier. Scarlets are very effective at this though and their back row is setup to steal ball which they did all night.


Scarlets do set up with back row who can steal ball in that they play Barclay at 8 plus a genuine openside. They were missing their top openside jackaller (Davies Jnr) and lost Barclay early on; their main jackaller last night was a 6'6" second row - these are indicators of just how poor the support of the ball carrier was.
joe soap
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby joe soap on Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:37 pm

Jockybadger wrote:Half back is Edinburgh's biggest (playing) issue.


when it goes wrong blame the half backs.

now I'm no big fan of the starting half backs, or of most of the rest of the half backs, but when pretty much the whole squad have huge issues in application, this is silly. Change the half backs, sign who you like if the squad mentality is still wrong it will change nothing.
When your team struggles for possession, defending most of the game, when the support to the ball carrier is
well nigh non existent (so no ball or slow ball), blaming the half backs is kind of missing the point.

You can argue if you like that the half backs are the least talented players in the squad, but they are not the biggest playing problem. You at least got 100% effort from the 2 who started last night, I cant say the same about everyone in that 23.
joe soap
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Jockybadger on Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:06 pm

Good retort Joe,

Are you saying if Edinburgh signed Russell / Price there would be no discernible improvement as the malaise @ the club is to deep/embedded?

The confidence generated by a gallus Russell/Price @ Glasgow is there for all to see (indeed the psychological effect on opponents is probably equally as important) . I think the opposite is the case @ Edinburgh.

The 1st half Weir knock-on on Saturday was a great example of his limitations.
Jockybadger
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:46 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Jockybadger wrote:Good retort Joe,

Are you saying if Edinburgh signed Russell / Price there would be no discernible improvement as the malaise @ the club is to deep/embedded?

The confidence generated by a gallus Russell/Price @ Glasgow is there for all to see (indeed the psychological effect on opponents is probably equally as important) . I think the opposite is the case @ Edinburgh.

The 1st half Weir knock-on on Saturday was a great example of his limitations.


How exactly? He's shown he can catch consistently.

Price and Russell would make a different sure, but they wouldn't be as good as they are for Glasgow. Russell would likely be a semi pro at Stirling right now if not for Glasgow picking him up. Also, both 24 or under so wouldn't have played much rugby for us.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:54 pm

I think that's a good point JB. It is confidence as much as malaise which is the problem. We don't have the confidence to win and try things.

If you look at Russell and Price the other night they both made mistakes but it doesn't bother them. When a team is on a bad run then mistakes send panic throughout the team.

I genuinely don't think any player os running onto the pitch and not trying, it just doesn't happen. What happens is when confidence is low decision making becomes slower and the game passes them by. We need to snap out of it quickly though. It needs some moments of real quality to put the belief back, the likes of Fruaen can do that. Sadly with Leinster up next it may have to wait another week as they are going to be out for blood after their SA trip.
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby joe soap on Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:56 pm

Jockybadger wrote:Good retort Joe,

Are you saying if Edinburgh signed Russell / Price there would be no discernible improvement as the malaise @ the club is to deep/embedded?

The confidence generated by a gallus Russell/Price @ Glasgow is there for all to see (indeed the psychological effect on opponents is probably equally as important) . I think the opposite is the case @ Edinburgh.

The 1st half Weir knock-on on Saturday was a great example of his limitations.


Edinburgh could sign Carter and Gareth Edwards in their prime and it would make little real difference, it might paper over a few cracks for while, that would be it.
2 seasons ago SHC was everything Price is now, plus he kicked goal for fun. Now form is temporary, but he has had a long run of shall we say far less than top form. Now is he just lost it, did it go to his head, was it a poor environment and culture, or was it feeling he had to force it when he got the ball, and trying to force it when the ball is slow and rare? Probably a mix of at least a couple, but the last one is certainly in the mix and there is nothing SHC can do about it. Weir not the same level, but again a player having to force it with rare and slow ball too often, coupled with a service that is sometimes less than perfect from a scrum half similarly under pressure.

For the Weegies if you have watched Russell behind a retreating and beaten pack (for them or Scotland), he looks a lot less gallus. Their game on Friday is still on iplayer I think -watch it (again) and take of note the defensive line speed, the support of the ball carrier and clear - old and fat as I am I would be pretty gallus behind that lot playing like that.

The malaise at Edinburgh is deep seated. It isn't irredeemable but the longer it goes on the harder it gets to sort. No excuses for favourites, no entitled to a chance because of injury. Earn their place or out the door. Cockerill is in a very strong position to change this, and while he can't do it overnight he must deliver on what he says or players will "have heard it all before" and we are no further forward.

Blaming the half back's failings is treating the symptoms not the disease
joe soap
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:31 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:
I genuinely don't think any player os running onto the pitch and not trying, it just doesn't happen. What happens is when confidence is low decision making becomes slower and the game passes them by. We need to snap out of it quickly though. It needs some moments of real quality to put the belief back, the likes of Fruaen can do that. Sadly with Leinster up next it may have to wait another week as they are going to be out for blood after their SA trip.


The issue isn't confidence as they lose at home to Treviso from 14 points up on a winning streak.

The issue might not be not trying in the 80 minutes when on the pitch, but are they honestly trying every second of training/fitness/analysis...?
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby biffer on Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:34 pm

Having finally seen the highlights

First try, meh, Lacey gonna Lacey.
Second try, wtf? How much crossing do you need to blow the farkin whistle?
Red card, meh, seen softer red cards but it's on a short list.
Other two tries were man down stuff imo.

Might bring myself to watch the game tomorrow.
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
biffer
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:07 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:02 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:
I genuinely don't think any player os running onto the pitch and not trying, it just doesn't happen. What happens is when confidence is low decision making becomes slower and the game passes them by. We need to snap out of it quickly though. It needs some moments of real quality to put the belief back, the likes of Fruaen can do that. Sadly with Leinster up next it may have to wait another week as they are going to be out for blood after their SA trip.


The issue isn't confidence as they lose at home to Treviso from 14 points up on a winning streak.

The issue might not be not trying in the 80 minutes when on the pitch, but are they honestly trying every second of training/fitness/analysis...?


It can still be confidence, where making mistake or giving away a soft try trashes what confidence there is. It becomes a vicious circle of forcing things and snatching at passes, which we have done a lot of. It also affects having a clear head and making cold descisions, e.g the lineout option vs Treviso.

No idea if they are trying at training, but I cant imagine Cockers is letting them off with it if they aren't, and the players being accused of it are still being picked and have been by the likes of Cotter, which I would think is very unlikely if they are lazy trainers.
dolf_lundgren
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2505
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:37 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:
It can still be confidence, where making mistake or giving away a soft try trashes what confidence there is. It becomes a vicious circle of forcing things and snatching at passes, which we have done a lot of. It also affects having a clear head and making cold descisions, e.g the lineout option vs Treviso.

No idea if they are trying at training, but I cant imagine Cockers is letting them off with it if they aren't, and the players being accused of it are still being picked and have been by the likes of Cotter, which I would think is very unlikely if they are lazy trainers.


Except it wasn't confidence as key players like Toolis came out in the press and said it was complacency.

What these players do for Scotland is irrelevant to what they do with Edinburgh, absolutely irrelevant. Also, nobody has never questioned their commitment to Scotland, far from it in fact, an irritation is the players raise their standards for Scotland and wait around for the Scotland tests to arrive instead of work hard for Edinburgh.
Friday Knight Lights
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby EWT spoons on Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:21 pm

Sorry but I think there is a lot of underestimating how important a good half back pairing is, they are the pivots to the team. If you have a 9&10 who are poor then chances are the team are going to be playing badly.

We have a good to very good set of forwards, granted some of them still need to come back from injury, but a FR of Dickinson/Dell/Sutherland (when one of them is fit) alongside Ford/McInally and Nel/Berghan is a very good front row. locks of Toolis who was in the team of the tournament last year (I believe) and Gilco or Bresler is a strong second row.
Our back row is still young, but Ritchie is showing real promise, Watson & Hardie are both very good and Bradbury whilst possibly not playing at his best just now has shown previously that he can be a very good player.

That set of forwards should not be getting dominated or overpowered, and if you have a half decent 9 & 10 combo behind them, then that would be a great platform for our attack. However what we have is a 9 who has lost anything resembling form and a 10 who has barely ever played well.

I know the biggest challenge is finding players who want to come to Edinburgh, because we're a bottom 4 team, but there has to be someone out there better than Weir & Tovey.
EWT spoons
International
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby joe soap on Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:08 pm

EWT spoons wrote:Sorry but I think there is a lot of underestimating how important a good half back pairing is, they are the pivots to the team. If you have a 9&10 who are poor then chances are the team are going to be playing badly.

We have a good to very good set of forwards, granted some of them still need to come back from injury, but a FR of Dickinson/Dell/Sutherland (when one of them is fit) alongside Ford/McInally and Nel/Berghan is a very good front row. locks of Toolis who was in the team of the tournament last year (I believe) and Gilco or Bresler is a strong second row.
Our back row is still young, but Ritchie is showing real promise, Watson & Hardie are both very good and Bradbury whilst possibly not playing at his best just now has shown previously that he can be a very good player.

That set of forwards should not be getting dominated or overpowered, and if you have a half decent 9 & 10 combo behind them, then that would be a great platform for our attack. However what we have is a 9 who has lost anything resembling form and a 10 who has barely ever played well.

I know the biggest challenge is finding players who want to come to Edinburgh, because we're a bottom 4 team, but there has to be someone out there better than Weir & Tovey.


no underestimating how important half backs are at all. They are the key pivots when they have something to pivot with. The idea that a magic 10 or 9 can win games in modern professional rugby without good ball presented quickly is delusional. Maybe in amateur rugby, but doubt that these days as well on its top levels
You say Edinburgh have a very good set of forwards. This is demonstrably nonsense, built on a myth a couple of season ago when it was a dominant scrum and decent maul. Where did Edinburgh finish in the league that season?You say they should not be dominated, yet around the park they are, week in week out. They were slow round the park back then and they are slow round the park now, delivering slow ball when they are not too slow to prevent a turnover. You can say there are some forwards who have ability, but certainly not a good pack.

Better than what we have at half back required of course, but lets not pretend the other issues are not much much bigger.
joe soap
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Scarlets v Edinburgh 23/09/2017 KO 19:35 (S4C from 19:15

Postby macdone on Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:56 am

Ruaridh Jackson and George Horne would improve us as would Huw Jones but the SRU can't run 2 successful sides simultaneously. They have committed to Glasgow for obvious reasons but it's killing us.

We need Cockerill to stand up for Edinburgh and demand more from our owners. It's not acceptable to keep doing people like Hodge and Weir favours. And the standard of our big money overseas signings isn't acceptable either. CdP, Burleigh, Rasolea and Mata have to go if they aren't going to contribute.
macdone
World Cup Star
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:16 am

PreviousNext

Return to Edinburgh Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests

cron