London Irish v Edinburgh

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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby joe soap on Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:16 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Ok, saved you the bother.

From the LI chat it looks like they have 7 players who are not injured and not in the squad. 2 of them weren't signed by the registration deadline and the other 5 are all "foreign" which means they fall foul of the completion rules... so they obviously decided they couldn't select all of them and still remain within the rules.

3.7 Each club is permitted a maximum of two 'non-European players' in each match squad.

Have to admit I didn't know about that rule, and it would explain why French and English teams appear to field weakened teams.


tell you what, explain why the restriction on a match day squad prevents you having as many "foreigners" in the overall squad as you like. I'll save you the bother, it doesn't.
Now tell me how many of the players left out are "foreign" as defined for this competition, and how many actually in the squad are "foreign".
Thanks.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:57 am

I wasn't being facetious, I was genuinely interested in your point and went and looked it up.

You are right you can have as many "foreign" players as you like in the main squad but it is a risk to have too many if you get injuries and then run into difficulty in finding a 23. There are limited numbers of changes you can make.

Your second question the answer is already given it is 5, and the third I don't know, bit it doesn't look like many. To be fair I said I don't know a huge amount about the LI squad you intimated that you did, so asking me questions seems a little futile, given your elevated position. I got the info I mention from the LI forum, perhaps you could go and ask them?

I'm not trying to make this personal but you seem keen to do so.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby royc on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:20 pm

joe soap wrote: ... explain why the restriction on a match day squad prevents you having as many "foreigners" in the overall squad as you like. I'll save you the bother, it doesn't.
Now tell me how many of the players left out are "foreign" as defined for this competition, and how many actually in the squad are "foreign".


I'm not sure I know the answers to this one but would appreciate elucidation! As I understand it:

Under rule 3.7, a team can only field 2 'Non European players' in a matchday squad. You can have as many 'foreigners as you like among your 41, but only two can play in any game.

'Non European players' is not what it sounds, as has been raised on here before. Under the Kolpak ruling, players from countries that have associate agreements with the EU are treated as Europeans, and that includes African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, which have a special development status with the EU.

So the main rugby-playing countries whose players are classed as 'Non European' for the purposes of the Cup are New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, Canada, USA, Japan etc.

LI look to have 11 of them on their books, 7 of whom are in their named Cup squad. It has to be a handicap that they can only field two in any game, it means there are 9 guys they cannot call on, assuming fit.

Edinburgh is in a much better position as our 'foreigners' are either SQ or qualified by residency. I think there is only one 'Non European' in our team, Fruean, as he's a Kiwi, though he may well be able to play the Samoa card.

Is that about right or am I miles out?
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby The Feral Goat on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:28 pm

Rasolea is I think Australia

Would need to check if in the past we played DuPreez, Bresler, Burleigh and Coman all at the same time
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby Tichtheid on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:38 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:Rasolea is I think Australia



Yeah, he played for Aussie 7s.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby royc on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:40 pm

Yes, probably Rasolea too. He's Australian-born, but played for Fiji in the JWC, then for Australia 7s. Does that make him dual-qualified or Australian? A question for Disco I think!
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby biffer on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:50 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:Rasolea is I think Australia

Would need to check if in the past we played DuPreez, Bresler, Burleigh and Coman all at the same time


Saffers are covered by Kolpak so don't count as foreigners.
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby Tichtheid on Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:09 pm

royc wrote:Yes, probably Rasolea too. He's Australian-born, but played for Fiji in the JWC, then for Australia 7s. Does that make him dual-qualified or Australian? A question for Disco I think!



If you have played for a team's 7s, you can only represent that country from then on.

The three qualification criteria are "senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team of a Union"

More teams are nominating the U20s as the next senior side and scrapping the "A" team in the wake of the Shingler for Scotland debacle.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby BigD163 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:12 pm

biffer wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:Rasolea is I think Australia

Would need to check if in the past we played DuPreez, Bresler, Burleigh and Coman all at the same time


Saffers are covered by Kolpak so don't count as foreigners.


Think that's a tricky one. In cricket for example they only count if they are not available for international cricket. Not sure how it is enforced though.

Surely Rasolea could be Kolpak through a Fijian passport? Although then he'd be subject to a Visa? Who knows....
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby zt1903 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:18 pm

biffer wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:Rasolea is I think Australia

Would need to check if in the past we played DuPreez, Bresler, Burleigh and Coman all at the same time


Saffers are covered by Kolpak so don't count as foreigners.


And Du Preez is Scottish
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby gowrie on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:07 pm

Tichtheid wrote:More teams are nominating the U20s as the next senior side and scrapping the "A" team in the wake of the Shingler for Scotland debacle.


Not anymore they're not, as of this season U20 sides are no longer eligible to be picked as next senior sides, and any 7s caps don't count if the player's under 20 years old.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:31 pm

So they only way to "capture" a player is a full or 7s cap (assuming over 20?) or are A teams still allowed even though there are very few A games played now?
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby Tichtheid on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:48 pm

gowrie wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:More teams are nominating the U20s as the next senior side and scrapping the "A" team in the wake of the Shingler for Scotland debacle.


Not anymore they're not, as of this season U20 sides are no longer eligible to be picked as next senior sides, and any 7s caps don't count if the player's under 20 years old.


Ah, I'd missed that.

I've just had a look, just for fun. Rasolea last played for Aus 7s when he was 21 years old.
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby joe soap on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:53 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:I wasn't being facetious, I was genuinely interested in your point and went and looked it up.

You are right you can have as many "foreign" players as you like in the main squad but it is a risk to have too many if you get injuries and then run into difficulty in finding a 23. There are limited numbers of changes you can make.

Your second question the answer is already given it is 5, and the third I don't know, bit it doesn't look like many. To be fair I said I don't know a huge amount about the LI squad you intimated that you did, so asking me questions seems a little futile, given your elevated position. I got the info I mention from the LI forum, perhaps you could go and ask them?

I'm not trying to make this personal but you seem keen to do so.


What irritates me is folk posting guff as fact. Or taking guff from elsewhere as fact. It really is quite useful to do one's own research before making claims. Whatever someone has said on the LI forum (and I have not bothered to read it) just shows how widespread ignorance is.

The rules on elegibility for the european competitions have been pretty much explained by others.

The "2 foreigners" rule is for match day squads. And it does not apply to players covered by Bosman or Kolpak rulings. It surely isn't that difficult to remember Toulon winning the big cup with only 3 or 4 Frenchmen starting. The same rule surprise surprise also applies to the pro14; and wait for it, these days to the Aviva Premiership. So if LI fans reasoning was correct, LI would never have signed all these "foreigners" or would be offloading them ASAP

Clubs not registering top players is because they are not bothered about the competition. Its not new and it is disrepectful to opponents and the competition
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Re: London Irish v Edinburgh

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:51 pm

Sorry if I have irritated you, I didn't realise what a sensitive we wee soul you were.

For someone who likes to deal in facts you are still summising why the players were left out of the squad despite reasons being offered as to why. Your version is just as much an assumption as others, so why not furnish us with the results of your extensive research?
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