Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby joe soap on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:44 pm

royc wrote:I understand that this is primarily a financial move, money needs to be saved in the pack in order to fund the upgrade to the backs, which is a correct and overdue decision. It is hard on a small and I'd think shrinking budget


there is a difference, a subtle one maybe, between a financial decision and a value for money decision. Hardie isn't VFM.
On what basis are you asserting a "shrinking budget"?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby joe soap on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:48 pm

Frenchy wrote:
16 league starts, 6 appearances off the bench.
6 European starts, none off the bench.
So 28 games in total for Edinburgh.

16 caps for Scotland in the same time.
44 games over three (2.5, really) seasons is pretty good, really, isn't it?


TFG has my vote on this one. Edinburgh have had 28 games a season. Scotland another 10 or so. 38 in total. Now he obviously can't play in both sides at the same time, but around 17 games a season out of 38 isn't good.More pertinently 11 a season out of 28 for Edinburgh is TonySpreadbury poor value for the wedge he will be on.

And frankly over-rated anyway. Good player, not a great one
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby BigD163 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:57 am

Frenchy wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:Very good player, but how many games has he actually played for Edinburgh over what will be the 3 seasons he has been here, 25 maybe 30? Appreciate he has been away with Scotland a fair bit but the likes of Kinghorn must have played almost twice as much in the same time frame.


16 league starts, 6 appearances off the bench.
6 European starts, none off the bench.
So 28 games in total for Edinburgh.

16 caps for Scotland in the same time.
44 games over three (2.5, really) seasons is pretty good, really, isn't it?


I am not sure that represents close to a good return on the investment though.

Over that 2.5 years. According to your stats, he's played in a third of the euro games (6 of 18) and appeared in 22 out of 60 league games in that period.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby Frenchy on Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:46 pm

For comparison (since Hardie signed, Autumn 2015):

Player|League Apps(+sub)|Euro apps(+sub)|International caps(+sub)
Code: Select all
Hamish Watson   |26 (9)  |9 (2) |15 (3)
Fraser McKenzie |25 (11) |7 (5) |0
Jamie Ritchie   |28 (6)  |6 (4) |0
Magnus Bradbury |23 (12) |9 (1) |1  (1)
John Barclay    |37 (2)  |11    |24 (3)
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby The Feral Goat on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:05 pm

Thanks Frenchy

Barclay 77 :eek:
Watson 64
McKenize 48
Ritchie 44
Bradbury 47
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:15 pm

So many variables in the value for money arguement, we don't actually know what he gets paid for a start. Then add in the competition for his place and his influence off the field.

So only a coach really knows all the facts.

I like him and thin he is one of our best players, but we have a budget and totally agree back row is an area of relative strength. If we had a scrum half of the same quality we would be delighted and he would be excellent value for money I'm sure.

He was brought in as an extra really as he was available and needed to play in Scotland, so it wasn't a planned signing and with Hamish on the go his game time was always going to be managed. By having Hardie it alllows us to not have to play Watson as often as the Scarlett's play Barclay.

Interesting if you see the stats on the number of games Heaslip and Warburton have played for their clubs over the past few years, it is less thNnthat have played for their country.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby biffer on Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:21 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:Thanks Frenchy

Barclay 77 :eek:
Watson 64
McKenize 48
Ritchie 44
Bradbury 47


And so far as I can tell du Preez has played 70
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby royc on Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:03 pm

joe soap wrote:
germain wrote:41 players.


aye, not 40. 41. And more to come. Fancy that.


Cockerill said 'around 40', which is very unlikely to be less than 40 and could easily be 42 or 43. What's with the pedantic stuff?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby joe soap on Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:35 pm

royc wrote:
joe soap wrote:
germain wrote:41 players.


aye, not 40. 41. And more to come. Fancy that.


Cockerill said 'around 40', which is very unlikely to be less than 40 and could easily be 42 or 43. What's with the pedantic stuff?


I know what Cockerill said. And I also know what Germain posted at least twice. Hen e I replied to him not you, even tho you initially gave it legs.

Still, while you are here, what have you to justify your various comments yet that budgets haven't in reader son e 2016, (which is wrong) or are Shrinking? Or is challenging your groundless assertions pedantry?
Last edited by joe soap on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby GaryIPA on Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Eh?
'The slap is immense'

"this is not soccer"
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby royc on Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:58 pm

joe soap wrote:Still, while you are here, what e identify e have you to justify your various comments yet that budgets haven't in reader son e 2016, (which is wrong) or are Shrinking? Or is challenging your groundless assertions pedantry?


You are I take it referring to my conclusion that the player budget has likely not risen very much if at all since 2016. I set out fully my reasoning for concluding so earlier in this thread, have made my own enquiries and will stick with that until anyone tells us differently.

Your alternative case seems to be based on the CEO NOT meaning what he said when he gave a figure of £4-5m for the squad budgets, which you have chosen rather unilaterally to mean more. ER was c £4.8m at the SGM in 2018 [edit: 2016], if they are still under £5m, as the CEO appeared to be saying, then the max budget would be £4.9m, n'est-ce pas?

As we know that the inflation rate for players is around 25%, that means an effective, real-world cut at Edinburgh. Pretty straightforward maths really.

Don't know why you are getting so hot under the collar about it really.
Last edited by royc on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby biffer on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:13 pm

GaryIPA wrote:Eh?


That's what I thought. e.
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby djphilp on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:07 pm

royc wrote:Don't know why you are getting so hot under the collar about it really.


This :above:
Image
Click on the logo above for Edinburgh's official website.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby joe soap on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:31 pm

royc wrote:You are I take it referring to my conclusion that the player budget has likely not risen very much if at all since 2016. I set out fully my reasoning for concluding so earlier in this thread, have made my own enquiries and will stick with that until anyone tells us differently.

Your alternative case seems to be based on the CEO NOT meaning what he said when he gave a figure of £4-5m for the squad budgets, which you have chosen rather unilaterally to mean more. ER was c £4.8m at the SGM in 2018 [edit: 2016], if they are still under £5m, as the CEO appeared to be saying, then the max budget would be £4.9m, n'est-ce pas?

As we know that the inflation rate for players is around 25%, that means an effective, real-world cut at Edinburgh. Pretty straightforward maths really.

Don't know why you are getting so hot under the collar about it really.


not hot under the collar, pointing out you are contradicting known knowns. Its not just that the context of the quotes you refer to being the super 6 and thus not intended to be specific but relative to £1m budgets, the CEO reported the budget figures to the AGM, confirmed by another poster as being as posted earlier by me. On top of that the SRU income has grown well over those 2 years or so. Yet you continue to assert cuts, or shrinking budgets, which £4-5M would be.

I have posted facts, you have posted "alternative facts", with nothing to substantiate them. N'est pas?

Player wage inflation was also reported to be around 25% pa, so of course the money goes less far, no argument, but that wasn't what you argued.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2018/19

Postby royc on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:44 pm

The Feral Goat]
Very good player, but how many games has he actually played for Edinburgh over what will be the 3 seasons he has been here, 25 maybe 30? Appreciate he has been away with Scotland a fair bit but the likes of Kinghorn must have played almost twice as much in the same time frame.

Would be a luxury to have kept him.[/quote]

[quote="joe soap wrote:
Frenchy wrote:
16 league starts, 6 appearances off the bench.
6 European starts, none off the bench.
So 28 games in total for Edinburgh.

16 caps for Scotland in the same time.
44 games over three (2.5, really) seasons is pretty good, really, isn't it?


TFG has my vote on this one. Edinburgh have had 28 games a season. Scotland another 10 or so. 38 in total. Now he obviously can't play in both sides at the same time, but around 17 games a season out of 38 isn't good.More pertinently 11 a season out of 28 for Edinburgh is TonySpreadbury poor value for the wedge he will be on.

And frankly over-rated anyway. Good player, not a great one


I so disagree with you guys (not Frenchy though, who draws the right conclusions), 44 games over de facto 2.5 seasons, aka 17 games a season, is good going by any reckoning. Only 1/5th of the squad have managed more so far this season as we enter the final quarter.

Hardy has been injured frequently, not because he is a kamikaze player but because he puts everything into his tackles and most bravely so - on Embra's behalf.The guy should be applauded for his valiant work, not damned with faint praise by people who don't seem to get the hazardous nature of the genuine 7's job or the work they do.

17 games a season is, as said, good going. As you will see from the pic below, the average so far this season is 10.7. It is nothing like 20+, half the squad (25 out of 51) have been injured or absent for 6 weeks or more (often much more), or are late-season arrivals, off with the 7a, loaned out etc, etc., so 20+ games is a bit of a rarity.

Hardie has been an excellent player for Embra and I wish him the best for the future, the curmudgeonly criticisms are well out of line imo.
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