Cheetahs v Edinburgh

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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:53 pm

liveinhope wrote:I can understand Ritchie and Burleigh are fresh (ok Burleigh came off the bench on Saturday) but the others have played in all three tests so possibly a rest before London Irish a week on Saturday might have been better?
Of course maybe they'll just train lightly and enjoy the sunshine!


I dont think any of them have played that much. Berg 40 mins on Sat and 20 mins vs NZ, CDP came off the bench for 20 mins and played the full game the week before. GG not sure was he 60 mins this week and the same the week before? I don't think the workload has been massive.

As you say possibly more to do with getting the squad together and training in the sun. SOme will need to play, Berg has to, possibly Burleigh too and GG on the bench. CDP might not be needed with Ritchie and Bradbury back.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:03 pm

There is also a lot to be said for bringing in guys who have been involved in a successful AI series for the mindset alone
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby David990 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:32 pm

Cheetahs at home are very tough team to beat. They've only lost once at home this season and even then they were leading Glasgow until a last minute try from us won us the game.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby doedin on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:12 pm

David990 wrote:Cheetahs at home are very tough team to beat. They've only lost once at home this season and even then they were leading Glasgow until a last minute try from us won us the game.


Don't think I would deny that however what annoys me is that we were on top early in 2nd half and had a chance in the game but due to our own ineptitude and stupid mistakes we destroyed any chance we did have of getting a result. If the other team plays better than us despite us giving our best then I can accept a defeat however we gifted them the game due to our own mistakes, even more frustrating given how well we know the team can play and did play against the Os.

Cockerill will be going apesh1t at the inconsistent displays by some players, he hooked SHC almost as soon as his loose box kick led to a try and I imagine a few others will have very sore ears. Having ascertained that Van Der Merwe was running riot we then failed to get the ball to him for the last quarter of the game. I suspect some players will now know exactly where they stand going forward.

Van der Merwe looks exciting prospect, Mata did his best and carried all game, the new 10 looked ok in patches and McCallum was his usual dependable self.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby royc on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:02 pm

I was scratching my head after the game trying to work out why we are not very good at scoring tries against the better teams. The top 6 in the league (Ulster excepted) are averaging 4 tries a game, Embra just 2 - and only one against the better teams we have met so far (one against Scarlets, one against Leinster, one against Cheetahs).

We can talk about errors, slow to breakdown, slow service from the halfbacks and so on, but watching the back play v Cheetahs, a few things stood out. Fife on the right wing got the ball a few times, but too often a hospital pass and he was anyway smothered by the drift defence. van der Merwe on the left wing, who looked like he might be the most potent ER back, hardly saw the ball, went about 30 mins with barely a touch.

What happened instead was that Dean and JJ carried up endlessly, invariably hit a defensive brick wall, recycled, and off we go again, all to no avail.

What is wrong with that? I happened to watch the highlights of the AP on Sunday, great viewing because it cuts out the standard forward bits and shows the build-up to the tries. There were some absolute crackers and it was surprising how many of them came from the centres. Against a standard, shoulder-to-shoulder AP defensive line, centres were accelerating and stepping, dummying, spinning, sliding/wriggling/barging through, using a whole bag of tricks. The passing from the half backs was generally nothing special and sometimes quite casual, but the centres still seemed able to turn it into an impressive attack.

Dean carries up valiantly but like a former 6, goes bang into contact, eventually recycles and any momentum is lost. JJ at least tries to step his man and slide though, but the Cheetahs' defence, as with Scarlets and Leinster, was up in position and the door was bolted.

It was interesting how readily the AP centres realised when nothing was on and put in a grubber or a chip-kick behind the line or laid the ball back to the breakaway forwards to change the angle of attack.

I like Dean and think he has a lot of promise at 12, but someone has to upskill him a lot in attacking moves. Ditto JJ, he is good but needs to lay the ball back, or get it swiftly to his wing, or boot it, it is not obligatory to continually run at a brick wall when there's pretty obviously nothing on, he is not the biggest player and can't just barge through.

In short, the problem seems to me to lie with the centres, and in particular their skills training, rather then the half backs, albeit it would assist if the latter could do their bit rather more accurately and swiftly.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:22 pm

That's a fair point, Roy, but I guess it's the corollary from quick ball being provided by the pack - the centres have the best chance to create scores when the defensive line is in retreat and disheveled - Huw Jones for example looks absolutely devastating under those circumstances
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby germain on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:06 pm

doedin wrote: we gifted them the game due to our own mistakes, even more frustrating given how well we know the team can play and did play against the Os.


I don't think so. We had an honest game but the Cheetahs were better. More creative and lively in attack, stronger in the set-piece. And we were not that good against the Ospreys. We were just slightly better, and the Ospreys were slightly less good than the Cheetahs. The score flatters Cheetahs but they were clearly the better team.
We're able to keep the ball for a long time but it's hard to score for us. It was true against Ospreys too.

Carmichael is not a 6. It's a small lock, but a lock. With him, Mata and Bradbury, we were not very effective in the contact area.
Captain McKenzie was great once more, but Bresler was anonymous. I'm quite disappointed by the Dean-Johnson combo. Not as dangerous as I hoped. Tovey was badly missed. Van Der Walt did two big and costly mitakes, and not much else.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby doedin on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:17 pm

royc wrote:I was scratching my head after the game trying to work out why we are not very good at scoring tries against the better teams. The top 6 in the league (Ulster excepted) are averaging 4 tries a game, Embra just 2 - and only one against the better teams we have met so far (one against Scarlets, one against Leinster, one against Cheetahs).

We can talk about errors, slow to breakdown, slow service from the halfbacks and so on, but watching the back play v Cheetahs, a few things stood out. Fife on the right wing got the ball a few times, but too often a hospital pass and he was anyway smothered by the drift defence. van der Merwe on the left wing, who looked like he might be the most potent ER back, hardly saw the ball, went about 30 mins with barely a touch.

What happened instead was that Dean and JJ carried up endlessly, invariably hit a defensive brick wall, recycled, and off we go again, all to no avail.

What is wrong with that? I happened to watch the highlights of the AP on Sunday, great viewing because it cuts out the standard forward bits and shows the build-up to the tries. There were some absolute crackers and it was surprising how many of them came from the centres. Against a standard, shoulder-to-shoulder AP defensive line, centres were accelerating and stepping, dummying, spinning, sliding/wriggling/barging through, using a whole bag of tricks. The passing from the half backs was generally nothing special and sometimes quite casual, but the centres still seemed able to turn it into an impressive attack.

Dean carries up valiantly but like a former 6, goes bang into contact, eventually recycles and any momentum is lost. JJ at least tries to step his man and slide though, but the Cheetahs' defence, as with Scarlets and Leinster, was up in position and the door was bolted.

It was interesting how readily the AP centres realised when nothing was on and put in a grubber or a chip-kick behind the line or laid the ball back to the breakaway forwards to change the angle of attack.

I like Dean and think he has a lot of promise at 12, but someone has to upskill him a lot in attacking moves. Ditto JJ, he is good but needs to lay the ball back, or get it swiftly to his wing, or boot it, it is not obligatory to continually run at a brick wall when there's pretty obviously nothing on, he is not the biggest player and can't just barge through.

In short, the problem seems to me to lie with the centres, and in particular their skills training, rather then the half backs, albeit it would assist if the latter could do their bit rather more accurately and swiftly.


Don't disagree however with SHC too slow to the breakdown and too slow in decision making and no running threat with Tovey at 10 who is sitting deep then all that happens is the oppo defence drift out wide and make sure that they can double up on the ball carrier who comes into contact. We are too easy to defend again because 9 and 10 offer no threat with ball in hand. SHC used to be constantly sniping and making breaks but he rarely does it these days. OK he got the try when their 9 when walkabout off the scrum but that was about it. Watching Price and Russell (I know an unfair comparison!) they constantly have the oppo defence worried by their ability to threaten the line and make a break, it sucks in defenders who are scared to leave any gaps and leaves space wider out for the likes of Huw Jones and the wingers. We will continue to struggle without a 9 and 10 who do more than the basics, and often do them badly.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby Sonicboom on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:24 pm

Not sure I agree that Tovey sits deep. I actually think he threatens the gain line pretty well and keeps the defence honest by breaking several times a game. I agree I'd like to see Sam back to his confident sniping best though. Too often looks like he is questioning himself rather than just going on instinct like he used to
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:31 pm

I think Dean and JJ also run excellent lines.

Watching Scotland it's so clear how Toonie layers the attack. Price gets the ball out quickly to either (a) a pod of forwards who always have an option to pass the ball on to move the point of contact. Or (b) hit back to Russell who then has options in his kicking is excellent, he can spot a gap or options with runners off the ball. And some of those runners are guys who can make space in a phonebox like Jones and Hogg. And that's not even considering Price can have a good himself. And then the players have the ability to execute at a high level.

Edinburgh don't have that nuisance pr ability yet. We flashed it Vs the Ospreys but not as much on Friday. It'll take a while for sure.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby doedin on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:46 pm

Sonicboom wrote:Not sure I agree that Tovey sits deep. I actually think he threatens the gain line pretty well and keeps the defence honest by breaking several times a game. I agree I'd like to see Sam back to his confident sniping best though. Too often looks like he is questioning himself rather than just going on instinct like he used to


When the game is going well for us he can sit flatter and have a go occasionally, however when it gets tough his default reaction is to sit deeper and deeper. I don't think it is his natural game to play on the gain line. SHC could take a lot of pressure off him though by posing more of a threat or even improving his passing so it is faster, flatter, in front of him and not on his ankles/over his head! I suspect Tovey doesn't really know what sort of ball is coming next which doesn't help.
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby joe soap on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:20 am

doedin wrote:When the game is going well for us he can sit flatter and have a go occasionally, however when it gets tough his default reaction is to sit deeper and deeper. I don't think it is his natural game to play on the gain line. SHC could take a lot of pressure off him though by posing more of a threat or even improving his passing so it is faster, flatter, in front of him and not on his ankles/over his head! I suspect Tovey doesn't really know what sort of ball is coming next which doesn't help.


the bolded bit is key here. Even the even best 10s don't try to play flat much off poor slow ball. Not saying Tovey is a Carter or Russell or Barrett bu he has looked pretty decent playing flat and breaking when on when he gets good quick ball. Ospreys game apart, he has had very little of that. Weir has had virtually none when fit enough to play.

I agree about SHC, frankly needs to understand he isn't as good as he thinks, sort the basics which have never been great (and thus he hasnt got them to fall back on).

I tire of half backs and other backs getting panned when we know or should know that they are a secondary issue. when folk compare to the Weegies all they see too often is the flash backs (an they are very good) but they play with loads of very quick front foot phase ball, successive phases - and no big bosher to start it off!

As to the centres, JJ hardly ever trucks it up, always try to use his feet and take the contact on his terms, which gives the opportunity for better quicker ball. He is a stepper and is quick enough, been really lucky to steal him from the 7s and hope he stays. Dean, hard to know what to make of him. decent solid player who has really only shone in attack when, guess what, Edin produce quick ball!
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Re: Cheetahs v Edinburgh

Postby joe soap on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:22 am

doedin wrote:I suspect Tovey doesn't really know what sort of ball is coming next which doesn't help.


and for all he isn't rated this is why Fowles should be no1 pick. Not perfect but his service is several cuts above SHC's
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