Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby joe soap on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:42 pm

biffer wrote:Russians not included as that stat was for pro14. Most talk on this thread is whether or not he should be in a training squad, not pushing Hogg out of the way.


my bad on the stats, fair cop. Point on hype still stands and Hogg is the measure for us and him before we talk of "generational talents" and at the same age they ain't even close. Which in itself isn't a concern, players develop differently and he may end up every bit as good, but he isn't yet the second coming or even close.

I said above that he should be with the wider training squad, which would be the right next step for him
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:14 pm

joe soap wrote:
biffer wrote:Russians not included as that stat was for pro14. Most talk on this thread is whether or not he should be in a training squad, not pushing Hogg out of the way.


my bad on the stats, fair cop. Point on hype still stands and Hogg is the measure for us and him before we talk of "generational talents" and at the same age they ain't even close. Which in itself isn't a concern, players develop differently and he may end up every bit as good, but he isn't yet the second coming or even close.

I said above that he should be with the wider training squad, which would be the right next step for him


Not true at all.

Kinghorn has had a much better career than Hogg up until now he's not even 21 has 60 Edinburgh caps. Not like Glasgow were well stocked at 15 when Hogg broke through 2011/12 so the bad team point wont wash.

If it wasn't for Hogg Kinghorn would have a fair few Scotland caps whereas Hogg broke through at the time Scotland had as much flair' and excitement as a trip to the dentist! If Kinghorn was around in those dark days rather than Hogg he'd also be lining up at 15.

Kinghorn is a generational talent. He's not a generational player. Scotland have not had such outrageous talents like him and Hogg in a long time. Kinghorn has to work very hard to become as good as Hogg, of course.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby biffer on Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:16 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
joe soap wrote:
biffer wrote:Russians not included as that stat was for pro14. Most talk on this thread is whether or not he should be in a training squad, not pushing Hogg out of the way.


my bad on the stats, fair cop. Point on hype still stands and Hogg is the measure for us and him before we talk of "generational talents" and at the same age they ain't even close. Which in itself isn't a concern, players develop differently and he may end up every bit as good, but he isn't yet the second coming or even close.

I said above that he should be with the wider training squad, which would be the right next step for him


Not true at all.

Kinghorn has had a much better career than Hogg up until now he's not even 21 has 60 Edinburgh caps. Not like Glasgow were well stocked at 15 when Hogg broke through 2011/12 so the bad team point wont wash.

If it wasn't for Hogg Kinghorn would have a fair few Scotland caps whereas Hogg broke through at the time Scotland had as much flair' and excitement as a trip to the dentist! If Kinghorn was around in those dark days rather than Hogg he'd also be lining up at 15.

Kinghorn is a generational talent. He's not a generational player. Scotland have not had such outrageous talents like him and Hogg in a long time. Kinghorn has to work very hard to become as good as Hogg, of course.


Ummm. Hogg was playing for Scotland at 19 and in the Lions squad when he was 21.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby Tichtheid on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:02 pm

You have preface everything it seems, so he’s not as good as Hoggy, yet.

My recollection is that Hogg broke through in the Scotland side after injuries to others, probably the Lamonts.
I also recall thinking at the time that Lee Jones looked the more promising of the two, again i’ll reiterate that this was back then.
Hoggy was far from the complete player, you are not expected to be at that age, he worked hard on receiving the high ball and on his defence, and on discipline. Now he is one of the best fullbacks in the game.

Can Kinghorn reach those standards? Right now I see no reason why not, given the right guidance and hard work he could be extraordinary
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby biffer on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:28 pm

Tichtheid wrote:You have preface everything it seems, so he’s not as good as Hoggy, yet.

My recollection is that Hogg broke through in the Scotland side after injuries to others, probably the Lamonts.
I also recall thinking at the time that Lee Jones looked the more promising of the two, again i’ll reiterate that this was back then.
Hoggy was far from the complete player, you are not expected to be at that age, he worked hard on receiving the high ball and on his defence, and on discipline. Now he is one of the best fullbacks in the game.

Can Kinghorn reach those standards? Right now I see no reason why not, given the right guidance and hard work he could be extraordinary


Don’t disagree with that.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:57 pm

biffer wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:You have preface everything it seems, so he’s not as good as Hoggy, yet.

My recollection is that Hogg broke through in the Scotland side after injuries to others, probably the Lamonts.
I also recall thinking at the time that Lee Jones looked the more promising of the two, again i’ll reiterate that this was back then.
Hoggy was far from the complete player, you are not expected to be at that age, he worked hard on receiving the high ball and on his defence, and on discipline. Now he is one of the best fullbacks in the game.

Can Kinghorn reach those standards? Right now I see no reason why not, given the right guidance and hard work he could be extraordinary


Don’t disagree with that.


I wonder whether in time it may be Hogg at FB with Kinghorn being a full back on the wing. If Kinghorn reaches close his potential and Hogg maintains his form they'll both need to be in the side.

It's all speculation, which is fun, but it's reliant on Kinghorn doing his bit.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:00 pm

biffer wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Not true at all.

Kinghorn has had a much better career than Hogg up until now he's not even 21 has 60 Edinburgh caps. Not like Glasgow were well stocked at 15 when Hogg broke through 2011/12 so the bad team point wont wash.

If it wasn't for Hogg Kinghorn would have a fair few Scotland caps whereas Hogg broke through at the time Scotland had as much flair' and excitement as a trip to the dentist! If Kinghorn was around in those dark days rather than Hogg he'd also be lining up at 15.

Kinghorn is a generational talent. He's not a generational player. Scotland have not had such outrageous talents like him and Hogg in a long time. Kinghorn has to work very hard to become as good as Hogg, of course.


Ummm. Hogg was playing for Scotland at 19 and in the Lions squad when he was 21.


Lions was an excellent achievement of course.

But he was in the Scotland team because we had awful backs. Just awful. Kinghorn would also have walked into that side.

Nowadays Scotland have serious ability in the back line as well as perhaps the best full back in the world at 15. So it's not really comparable.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby joe soap on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:26 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Not true at all.

Kinghorn has had a much better career than Hogg up until now he's not even 21 has 60 Edinburgh caps.

If it wasn't for Hogg Kinghorn would have a fair few Scotland caps whereas Hogg broke through at the time Scotland had as much flair' and excitement as a trip to the dentist! If Kinghorn was around in those dark days rather than Hogg he'd also be lining up at 15.

Kinghorn is a generational talent. He's not a generational player. Scotland have not had such outrageous talents like him and Hogg in a long time. Kinghorn has to work very hard to become as good as Hogg, of course.



Hogg was a Lions a few months or than Kinghorn is now. If there was a Lions tour this year, would Kinghorn be close? You are only kidding yourself if you think so. To say he has had a better career to date is a very very strange thing to say. How well stocked with good full backs were Edinburgh when Kinghorn broke through? How well stocked are they now for that matter?

If it weren't for Hogg, Kinghorn would have a fair few caps? Aye right,making up stuff now to suit your hype; that'll be why he was capped last summer when Hogg was with the Lions and in November after Hogg was injured, and why Tonks, Maitland and Jackson respectively have all been preferred to him so far.

He might become a generational talent, so far he is a prodigy with huge promise who has made no impact on the international stage or even the main european competition; generational talents are judged on those stages against similar talents
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby zt1903 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:15 pm

What an utterly pointless argument.

Kinghorn is a big talent, Hogg is the biggest talent we’ve had in Scottish Rugby for years. Whether Kinghorn is ahead of Hogg at that stage of development or not is completely irrelevant.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby Tichtheid on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:32 pm

I think it’s just a bit of fun, tbh, pub talk.

The forum could do with a bit more of it, a bit more buzz about the players and the team
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby robdinsdale on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Imagine having this kind of argument when Hugo Southwell was winning his 59 caps for Scotland.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby The Feral Goat on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:43 pm

Load of irrelevant nonsense Darcy Graham is better than both :twisted:
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby disco on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:47 pm

If you're Blair Kinghorn and you're ambitious and want to push your way into the Scotland reckoning then I don't think Hogg is your target - it should be Maitland. Cockerill talked about Kinghorn this week as covering wing and full back -
which has been the role Maitland has filled for Scotland for the past few years.

There's still the guts of 20 Test matches to play before the RWC in Japan (by which point Maitland will be 31). If Kinghorn spends time with the squad this Six Nations, picks up his first caps over the summer and shows he can be effective in the wing position I think he will be an extremely strong candidate for the World Cup squad.
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby New Gunner on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:52 pm

One of the strange things about Kinghorn is that he is deceptively quick and his running style is almost 'under the radar'.

Hogg's style is all explosive, high-energy steps and bursts of acceelration which he can then maintain in a sprint. It's thrilling to watch.

Kinghorn doesn't look like he accelerates that quickly, but he outpaces the opposition and kind of lopes across the ground with a huge gait. Also, he sort of ghosts past defenders and glides though spaces.

I suspect an opponent done by Hogg knocks exactly how he was tricked / run past - with Kinghorn I get the feeling they're scratching their heads, wondering what the hell just happened.

Great to have these contrasting styles available, and I agree the time is coming where Kinghorn is likely to be tried on the wing with Hogg at 15, and first choice. I'd pay money to watch that.

EDIT: great minds think alike, Disco 8)
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Re: Edinburgh v Kings 05 Jan 18, 1935 Myreside

Postby royc on Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:36 pm

New Gunner wrote:One of the strange things about Kinghorn is that he is deceptively quick and his running style is almost 'under the radar'.

Hogg's style is all explosive, high-energy steps and bursts of acceelration which he can then maintain in a sprint. It's thrilling to watch.

Kinghorn doesn't look like he accelerates that quickly, but he outpaces the opposition and kind of lopes across the ground with a huge gait. Also, he sort of ghosts past defenders and glides though spaces.

I suspect an opponent done by Hogg knocks exactly how he was tricked / run past - with Kinghorn I get the feeling they're scratching their heads, wondering what the hell just happened.

Great to have these contrasting styles available, and I agree the time is coming where Kinghorn is likely to be tried on the wing with Hogg at 15, and first choice. I'd pay money to watch that.

EDIT: great minds think alike, Disco 8)


Agree NG, it's very difficult to compare Hogg and Kinghorn, they are very different types of player. Hogg is comparatively small at this level, 5'11 (if that) and 13 stone, but that facilitates his fantastic acceleration and from day one he has augmented that with great instinctive running lines, makes him a smashing attacking player. Kinghorn is a big lad, 6'4", 15 stone, but he picks up speed rapidly and has a very good step and eye for a gap and pretty good hands too. The former reminds of a whizzy Toonie or Alan Tait, the latter a big Gav Hastings with a better step. Both have a very good boot on them as well. But still two very different styles of player.

Kinghorn is coming on very well this season and I think JS is right, get him in the 6N squad, he would learn a lot training with Maitland, Jackson, Tommy S etc under GT's experienced eye. Far too soon for an international cap IMO, being eased in on a summer tour would be spot-on while he develops his defensive positioning etc.

However, while we may have our best set of international back threes for many a season, as we know, a couple of injuries or cards in any position and we are really struggling for depth. Kinghorn may have to step up sooner than perhaps ideal, so the sooner he gets the call-up to the national squad and gets in the groove, the better.
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