Edinburgh v Cardiff

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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby macdone on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:56 am

Back to earth with a bump. We have to show next week that we aren't the same old Edinburgh. I hope we get Toolis, Watson, SHC and Johnstone back in. Berghan to start too.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby biffer on Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:19 am

If we were going to have a bad game, I'd have wanted it to be that one. Next week is much more important. Let's see what Cockers does to them this week.

Last night was TonySpreadbury poor, but we'll get back on the horse next week.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:01 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote: I do think the back row was decent.

I'm not sure I agree - vdM made metres but needs to get more involved and tidy up his defence. I'm disappointed by Bennett - just not getting anything going.

What disappointed me most was our kicking game was absolutely mince. Fowles' box kicking is a farce, either no length at all or a kick that goes far too far and gives nobody a chance of recovering. VdW kicks too short. Kinghorn has a very nice kick towards the end of the first half but other than that doesn't seem to kick.


specifically on those points

vdM didnt make many metres last night. What he did was run up blind alley a couple of times and away from support. He has done the same previous matches and needs to make better decisions. His tackle stats aren't exactly impressive either

Back row - as I said Hardie made his tackles but other than that - barely touched the ball (unacceptable for a 7) and pretty ineffective at the breakdown whether attack or defence. Mata TBF carried hard (best of our ball carriers though that is a low bar) but not often effectively if you get my meaning, but that wasn't always his fault. Bradbury was rank, carried far too upright into contact and easily turned over. And pretty anonymous otherwise.

Not sure what you mean by VDM kicking too short, I will say his kicking was poor as was nearly all his decision making. Kinghorn kicks long when he has to, but as should be obvious from last night he will counter attack from deep if its on rater than take the low risk option of punting it miles downfield. If he chooses his moments as well as the 2nd half last night Ill happily back him on that. He'll get a few wrong, but either he uses his eye for the gap power and pace or plays safe -if he does the latter then he isnt going to be the player he should be.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby royc on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:22 am

gowrie wrote:The reality is that our attack, is rubbish, and even when we've had some great ball from the forwards our backs have almost never threatened except when Kinghorn creates something. I think if you compare us to teams we should be marking ourselves against, in the top half of the table, our passing and lines are so much slower and done miles away from the defence if we do them at all. Need a change at halfback and attack coach, but I think I've said that a few times now.


I think that's a pretty fair summary in a nutshell. There is lots more to it of course, but one thing that's been standing out for a while is that our centres are not working that well, they are getting closed down and stifled all too easily. The radio commentary touched on this a few times yesterday and maybe got close to the mark: (a) Dean and Bennett are playing as two individuals, rather than a centre pairing, (b) they are both carrying up too frequently when there is nothing on and running into a brick wall, when often the better option would be to put the ball through the hands and get it out to the fast men and (c) Bennett is trying too hard to do a one-man Huw Jones when he's not yet up to speed after his long lay-off.

While there are good flashes now and again, we are not showing much ingenuity or deception in our centre attack, it is pretty predictable and can be stifled too easily, as Cardiff showed. This for me is a coaching issue.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby Weegie on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:46 am

Edinburgh were poor, and sadly several players had about their worst game of the year all at once. Edinburgh are still dragging themselves up the slope, and slipped back a few steps. They are not yet good enough or confident enough to deal with a lot going wrong at once and confidence just drained out of the team and headless chicken play ensued.

The key is how they respond, let's hope for a backlash next week.

I am firmly in the 'why does Fowles have a contract' camp, and I'm not that impressed with van der Walt. But Edinburgh also do not have anyone breaking the door down to take their places and with little control there we were in trouble.

It was a bit worrying that there were times when things were on with overlaps, fast backs facing forwards etc and Edinburgh would either not see it all, or by the time they did the chance was gone, or they'd muck it up.

What was really disappointing was Edinburgh failing to respond to clear Cardiff tactics. For example, they'd identified the back three lie deep, so made lots of wee chips into the gap. How long did this go on before Edinburgh responded? And so often there was a herd of Edinburgh players milling around behind the ruck or whatever. Not racing to get back in line but milling around getting in the way. Just not thinking clearly and coherently all night long.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby doedin on Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:32 pm

Bottom line is that Cardiff had worked us out and we couldn't respond on the pitch. Cardiff flooded the breakdown, played the umbrella defence to stop us getting ball out wide to 13 and back 3 and played the wee kicks into the gap behind our rush defence and a deep lying back 3. Pretty simple stuff but they did it well and we didnt respond. To be fair to Bennet he had no ball whatsoever to play with and the wingers were getting slow lateral ball with 3 defenders and no-where to go. Cardiff had worked out that our inside half weren't going to offer much in attack and just drifted their defence out and closed down Bennet. Our box kicking and exits were very poor whereas Cardiffs tactical kicking was excellent.

We had no Plan B and it is in these sort of situations when you need leadership on the pitch and hopefully a 9 and 10 who can see what is happening and change the patterns of play, we had neither. To make matters worse Fowles had a nightmare with mistakes contributing to the tries conceded, his usual poor box kicking, so so slow at the breakdown and a number of poor and missed passes. At one point after about 30 mins I thought he had just lost all confidence and didnt know what to do next. A team will never win a game with such a poor performance at 9. He should have been hooked earlier.

I had thought our pack would win the battle for us but TBH we lost it. We were very slow to the breakdown and there was a lot of poor clearing out. The likes of Sutherland and Nel dont look fit and are no where near the levels they were at a season ago and it showed. Given how Cardiff were playing I thought we would have concentrated on more pick and goes and try and play 10 man rugby around the fringes to try and draw their defence in and create more space out wide. However we just didnt have the aggression or nous to break around the fringes, this is when we really miss the likes of Watson. As a result Cardiff dealt easily with our attacks, spread out across the pitch and then rushed our 13 channel when we attacked.

We desperately need a new 9 and for Shield to live up to his growing reputation next season, we need some brains and some penetration from our half backs. VdW looks jaded having played all the way through SH and a NH season and he needs a rest, he will improve next season. Kennedy at least was able to speed the ball up and his box kicking was miles better. I expect to see Kennedy and Weir start the next game, unless SHC comes back in which case he may start with Kennedy on the bench.

Still all to play for and hope to see a response for the next game. The Cardiff game just shows exactly where we need to strengthen the squad going forward.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby liveinhope on Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:06 pm

All been said and a desperately disappointing night at Murrayfield-and further pity was a chance to capture a few (or a lot) of those who "select" their games to come back for the home run in.
Despite that as Biffer said if we were going to lose a game frankly rather this week than next (though the performance was so poor it doesn't bode well for the next few games.The Ulster game is absolutely vital -lose it and we may well lose out on 3rd place with the guarantee of Champions Cup next season and the Pro 14 play offs. Win,though, and the Scarlets match could be a possible challenge for 2nd place.
Cockerill will really earn his corn if he can lift the players for these matches ( and be ruthless in his selections-I'd like to see all or some of McCallum,Ritchie and JJ involved-and of course prayer mats out all week for SHC's recovery.)
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:41 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote: I do think the back row was decent.

I'm not sure I agree - vdM made metres but needs to get more involved and tidy up his defence. I'm disappointed by Bennett - just not getting anything going.

What disappointed me most was our kicking game was absolutely mince. Fowles' box kicking is a farce, either no length at all or a kick that goes far too far and gives nobody a chance of recovering. VdW kicks too short. Kinghorn has a very nice kick towards the end of the first half but other than that doesn't seem to kick.


specifically on those points

vdM didnt make many metres last night. What he did was run up blind alley a couple of times and away from support. He has done the same previous matches and needs to make better decisions. His tackle stats aren't exactly impressive either

Back row - as I said Hardie made his tackles but other than that - barely touched the ball (unacceptable for a 7) and pretty ineffective at the breakdown whether attack or defence. Mata TBF carried hard (best of our ball carriers though that is a low bar) but not often effectively if you get my meaning, but that wasn't always his fault. Bradbury was rank, carried far too upright into contact and easily turned over. And pretty anonymous otherwise.

Not sure what you mean by VDM kicking too short, I will say his kicking was poor as was nearly all his decision making. Kinghorn kicks long when he has to, but as should be obvious from last night he will counter attack from deep if its on rater than take the low risk option of punting it miles downfield. If he chooses his moments as well as the 2nd half last night Ill happily back him on that. He'll get a few wrong, but either he uses his eye for the gap power and pace or plays safe -if he does the latter then he isnt going to be the player he should be.


Not sure he ran up blind alleys - clear out at the breakdown was terrible last night no matter who was the carrier. Yeah, he needs to tidy up his defence.

Hardie turned the ball over a bit, he'll never be a carrying type. Maybe he's not the modern 7 but effective at what he does. Bradbury can carry a tad too high that's true but he and Mata had 2/3 tacklers to bring them down - problem was Cardiff disrupted the breakdown and sprinted up in defence cutting down space. There would've been space out wide but we couldn't get there. I think Dean has an underrated passing game but neither he nor Bennett would you describe passing as a strength which caused problems.

I meant that VdW's kicks don't get much length. Kinghorn's breaks were fantastic but from 22 exits he can come up to clear.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby macdone on Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:26 pm

Our backline is still a problem - we are still recruiting players just below top level ie 3rd \ 4th choice for Scotland like Scott and Bennett. They are good players but we shouldn't get carried away. Our backline will at least be competitive with the likes of Connacht, Cardiff and Ospreys and that's progress.

Ultimately we have to do better developing our own backs like Leinster, Scarlets and Glasgow have. Whether we have the best coaches to do that I don´t know. But let's hope Shiel and Graham can succeed where SHC and Hoyland have failed.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby Weegie on Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:26 pm

liveinhope wrote:All been said and a desperately disappointing night at Murrayfield-and further pity was a chance to capture a few (or a lot) of those who "select" their games to come back for the home run in.
Despite that as Biffer said if we were going to lose a game frankly rather this week than next (though the performance was so poor it doesn't bode well for the next few games.The Ulster game is absolutely vital -lose it and we may well lose out on 3rd place with the guarantee of Champions Cup next season and the Pro 14 play offs. Win,though, and the Scarlets match could be a possible challenge for 2nd place.
Cockerill will really earn his corn if he can lift the players for these matches ( and be ruthless in his selections-I'd like to see all or some of McCallum,Ritchie and JJ involved-and of course prayer mats out all week for SHC's recovery.)


Despite Cockers repeating many times that Edinburgh can't prioritise and have to give every game the same attention, I do wonder if a few players minds were not on next week.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:23 pm

macdone wrote:Our backline is still a problem - we are still recruiting players just below top level ie 3rd \ 4th choice for Scotland like Scott and Bennett. They are good players but we shouldn't get carried away. Our backline will at least be competitive with the likes of Connacht, Cardiff and Ospreys and that's progress.

Ultimately we have to do better developing our own backs like Leinster, Scarlets and Glasgow have. Whether we have the best coaches to do that I don´t know. But let's hope Shiel and Graham can succeed where SHC and Hoyland have failed.


Bennett is a tricky one as it's injury rather than lack of ability that's held him back. Of course he needed some improvements but the main problem is injury.

I agree with you in that we have talented backs and youngsters but they don't kick in and become international class players. Kinghorn looks well on his way and I expect his occasional brain fades to stop.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby New Gunner on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:19 pm

Overall we were woeful last night, very disappointing but hopefully a bump in the road. Agree with most that others have pointed out, failure to respond to Cardiff's tactics, Fowles and VDW poor, most players just not on it etc.

I thought that not only Kinghorn but also Dean carried well second half and made several dangerous line breaks, but on each occasion became isolated due to lack of supporting runner. I think in one case Dean had to pop a Hail Mary offload off the floor as he was so far ahead of support, we knocked on etc etc. Poor team display but good to see Dean and KH finding gaps.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:19 pm

Very poor performance but with the intensity of the next few weeks it in some ways is better to allow the team to focus. Big test for Cockers now as so far things have been positive, now he needs to pick them back up and get them firing.
Yes Fowles and VDW were very poor, but it wasn't just them. They both could do with a break I think, so hopefully we can freshen things up with Watson and Toolis too.

The big worry is we have 3 huge league games and hopefully a playoff or 2. For all it has been a great season, given the opposition we could end it by losing 5 on the bounce. Need to get back on the horse and Ulster are the perfect opportunity for that, if we play like we did then we will lose.
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby joe soap on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:14 pm

Weegie wrote:Despite Cockers repeating many times that Edinburgh can't prioritise and have to give every game the same attention, I do wonder if a few players minds were not on next week.


that would be a variation on the Edinburgh of old and unacceptable. Playing when they feel like it rather than playing every game as if their next contract depended on it - which it should (and hopefully does).
I'm not sure your speculation is right though.

Cocker's take is that players froze. More likely, not really acceptable but something that can be worked on as they play more big games - and grasp that their next contract depends on performing every week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43608578
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Re: Edinburgh v Cardiff

Postby disco on Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:56 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Not sure he ran up blind alleys - clear out at the breakdown was terrible last night no matter who was the carrier. Yeah, he needs to tidy up his defence.

Hardie turned the ball over a bit, he'll never be a carrying type. Maybe he's not the modern 7 but effective at what he does. Bradbury can carry a tad too high that's true but he and Mata had 2/3 tacklers to bring them down - problem was Cardiff disrupted the breakdown and sprinted up in defence cutting down space. There would've been space out wide but we couldn't get there. I think Dean has an underrated passing game but neither he nor Bennett would you describe passing as a strength which caused problems.

I meant that VdW's kicks don't get much length. Kinghorn's breaks were fantastic but from 22 exits he can come up to clear.

The difference between Mata and Bradbury seemed pretty stark. Mata consistently provided front foot ball whereas Bradbury went nowhere. ESPN have them as 20 carries for 54 metres and 11 carries for 4 metres respectively. Bradbury also lost the ball 4 times. 18 months ago Bradbury seemed like he was going to be the answer for Scotland at 6 but he seems to be toiling a bit right now.
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