Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby royc on Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:50 pm

One thing synonymous with a lot of Edinburgh's better wins this season has been the speed at which the breakaway forwards and locks get to the breakdown and attack around the fringes, which has created attacking opportunities for the backs against a retreating defence. Last night was the reverse of that until maybe the last 20, getting done at the breakdown with no support in sight and some solo carries by Mata, unsupported by his fellow breakaways.

It helps if you have a fast, nuggety openside, they won't always be the first to the breakdown but will be there or thereabouts. Ritchie is quite quick but didn't make much impression in that department. But he was not alone among the breakaways.

I thought Kennedy was good when he came on, seemed assured, with good, panic-free, heads-up distribution, put in three or four very good tackles, I'd forgotten that he is pretty quick around the park. I thought he was a bit better than SHC tbh.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:16 pm

Agree on the backrow. I don't think Mata and Bradbury work in the same unit because they don't clear breakdowns fast enough. I think they are two 8s but we need a nuggety 6 to glue it all together.

I think we've been desperately short of quality at 9 and 10 the last few weeks. We need a new 9 and have to hope with a pre season van Der Walt adjusts and Hickey is a good player.

It's disappointing but I think it's important to remember where we are. It's still down to us for Champions Cup and we've been dreadful for years with no realistic shot. We're doing well and we just need to beat the Scarlets (who'll have an eye on their semi final) next week.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby joe soap on Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:40 pm

royc wrote:One thing synonymous with a lot of Edinburgh's better wins this season has been the speed at which the breakaway forwards and locks get to the breakdown and attack around the fringes, which has created attacking opportunities for the backs against a retreating defence. Last night was the reverse of that until maybe the last 20, getting done at the breakdown with no support in sight and some solo carries by Mata, unsupported by his fellow breakaways.

It helps if you have a fast, nuggety openside, they won't always be the first to the breakdown but will be there or thereabouts. Ritchie is quite quick but didn't make much impression in that department. But he was not alone among the breakaways.
.


first paragraph is right.
Second one - no openside is anywhere near all attacking rucks, it isn't how pro rugby is played. In attack its forward pods, usually the same players will form a pod in similar areas of the park. Last night it was difficult to work out at times whether Edinburgh were playing 2 man pods or 3 man pods with one AWOL. I think you have to be very good and the opposition really really poor to get away with 2 man pods. Hence we got slow ball. Too many players were too slow to the breakdown, too many didn't work hard enough or didn't focus hard enough - I think the latter they froze, again
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby Weegie on Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:42 pm

I think Ulster were lucky the first half was so scrum free. At best afew scrum penalties would have pinned them back, at worst it would have tired their forwards as it looked like, given the chance, they'd have taken a battering there. But it did not happen and Edinburgh did not respond to what did.

A few Edinburgh players were either trying too hard, or believe their own publicity. There were numerous time where the ball should have been moved but a player either took contact, or ran sideways to close down the space for the players outside them.

I am really having trouble working out why so many players appear to stand around waiting for someone else to take responsibility. It may be letting the ball bounce, it may be failing to get back into the defensive line, or it may be watching an attack but not supporting, but it looks like players are not working hard enough at the right things and then compounding by playing as individuals rather than a team.

And once again, Edinburgh mistakes and missed tackles that really should have been made let the opposition make hay.

I am struggling to see how you fix this, so it just as well I am not head coach.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:41 pm

It is being fixed?

Look at where we were last year and where we are now. Title challengers aren't built overnight - this season was always going to be an improvement but there's still a lot of work to be done.

We're improving, we will improve next year and be helped with the big game experience from this year.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby doedin on Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:51 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Agree on the backrow. I don't think Mata and Bradbury work in the same unit because they don't clear breakdowns fast enough. I think they are two 8s but we need a nuggety 6 to glue it all together.

I think we've been desperately short of quality at 9 and 10 the last few weeks. We need a new 9 and have to hope with a pre season van Der Walt adjusts and Hickey is a good player.

It's disappointing but I think it's important to remember where we are. It's still down to us for Champions Cup and we've been dreadful for years with no realistic shot. We're doing well and we just need to beat the Scarlets (who'll have an eye on their semi final) next week.


Agree about Mata and Bradbury, both like to carry but neither all that good at the breakdown. Mata is an important ball carrier for us and without Watson or Hardie then we need a 6 who is better at the breakdown than Bradbury. I would have Crosbie in there and wouldn't be surprised to see him get a call up for the next game.

I am not really sure what is Ritchie's best position, he struggled at 7 last night and we never made or even looked like winning a turnover. Whatever the back row combination didnt work and as a result we struggled to make headway with the ball and didnt slow Ulsters ball down at the breakdown and that is what killed us. SHC and Weir struggled all night because of the poor ball from our forwards. However we do need more quality at half back and someone who can run a game for us.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby disco on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:52 pm

I think you'll be getting a second string or at least weakened Scarlets team next Saturday. They got the result they needed today and with the Dragons on the final day the result in Round 20 is of much less consequence. That will allow them to keep their main men fresh for the Champions Cup semi-final the following week.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby biffer on Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:46 am

Weegie wrote:I think Ulster were lucky the first half was so scrum free. At best afew scrum penalties would have pinned them back, at worst it would have tired their forwards as it looked like, given the chance, they'd have taken a battering there. But it did not happen and Edinburgh did not respond to what did.

A few Edinburgh players were either trying too hard, or believe their own publicity. There were numerous time where the ball should have been moved but a player either took contact, or ran sideways to close down the space for the players outside them.

I am really having trouble working out why so many players appear to stand around waiting for someone else to take responsibility. It may be letting the ball bounce, it may be failing to get back into the defensive line, or it may be watching an attack but not supporting, but it looks like players are not working hard enough at the right things and then compounding by playing as individuals rather than a team.

And once again, Edinburgh mistakes and missed tackles that really should have been made let the opposition make hay.

I am struggling to see how you fix this, so it just as well I am not head coach.


Anyone who can’t see the difference between this year and the last eight isn’t watching.
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby biffer on Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:49 am

disco wrote:I think you'll be getting a second string or at least weakened Scarlets team next Saturday. They got the result they needed today and with the Dragons on the final day the result in Round 20 is of much less consequence. That will allow them to keep their main men fresh for the Champions Cup semi-final the following week.


I think you’re right, that result was good for us. Scarlets sequence of games is EC QF, Glasgow, us, EC sf, Dragons, p14 playoff game, P14 semifinal. Having beaten Glasgow, the game v us is the only possible time to rest their big boys.
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:01 am

biffer wrote:Anyone who can’t see the difference between this year and the last eight isn’t watching.


take away the first few weeks of the season and the last 2 and the difference is stark, more than that, staggering. But the last 2 were getting closer to the first few weeks than anyone should be comfortable with, and thus closer to the previous 10 years.
The positive is that Edinburgh never produced more than 2 performances in a row in that previous 10 years, and I suspect none of the dog to eke out wins.
Another positive is that just as the change didn't happen overnight (the Solly days an clear outs were necessary I'm afraid even if he stayed too long), the renaissance, if it comes wont be built in a season.

Still the last 2 games were disappointing not just in results but how they were lost; still have a play off place and a Champs Cup place in own control, think most would have bitten your hand off for that at this stage at the start of the season
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:46 pm

Even in the game on Friday we were in it until the end to be fair.

This team isn't defined by a one off result, it's defined by keeping performance levels high for an entire season as you say.

There's a plan, an attitude and style of play in place. Most players have taken a leap forward this year, every spot (except 9) that needs an improvement has a new player coming in and we're going to get even better and be better for the experience of playing important matches.

I'm confident we'll beat a second string and probably unfocused Scarlets side.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby New Gunner on Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:30 pm

Looked in more detail at the first three tries, which did the real damage in this game. All three started with Edinburgh errors / penalties leading to Ulster attacking lineouts.

The first Ulster try started out with Edinburgh on the front foot and spreading the ball wide - Burleigh elects to kick off his weaker foot and momentum is lost as it goes out on the full, bringing us back to an Ulster lineout on the ER 10 metre line. Coach killer. However, the try is as a direct result of a simple defensive error by Kinghorn. He doubts that Fife is going to complete the tackle on Piutau and steps in to assist. Fife makes the tackle, but Piutau offloads to Stockdale (Kinghorn's man) who takes off up the wing creating an overlap and easy inside pass to Cave to score. Incidentally as the ball is spread wide initially Cave comes up with an Ulster trademark dummy run straight into Burleigh, taking him out of the defence - this didn't cause the overlap but in my view it's an illegal ploy that Ulster in particular get away with far too often.

The second try came again from an Ulster line-out, this time as a result of a penalty for needless offside by Weir. The defensive line sets OK from the lineout up until a midfield ruck, when Ulster flood the right hand side of the ruck and we are slow to respond - as the (quick) ball comes back Ulster have 8 players between the ruck and the right touchline, with several running across - we have 5 on that side of the pitch, and are mainly static. You could criticise VDM for flying up to tackle McPhillips leaving Cave unmarked, but this was a numbers game - if he had stayed on Cave McPhillips would likely have been under the sticks having almost certainly outpaced Berghan. Kinghorn is on the turn and has to try to cover both Cave and Piutau, who steps inside to score - to be fair, Piutau was always going to be hard to stop from that position.

The third try starts with a great carry from Mata into enemy territory. As he's brought to ground only Kinghorn is in support, followed by Fife, who are both ineffective in clearing out. SHC arrives at the breakdown and has to scream to Ritchie to hit the ruck, far too late to secure the ball. Then, a carbon copy of the second - line out off the top, ruck in the middle of the pitch. This time, Edinburgh have been far quicker to move across and spread the defensive line. McPhillips then passes behind a dummy / blocker runner (Cave again I think) who runs out-to-in & manages to tie up Burleigh & Mata while distracting Ritchie. Stockdale comes onto the ball at pace from deep through the gap created by Burleigh, who had stepped in to tackle the blocker, and then a simple inside pass to Cooney who's straight in under the sticks. It's a clever play, but arguably it's Burleigh's error to commit to the decoy when Mata and Ritchie were well able to cover that run, and that's where the gap was created. Again, Ulster trademark blocking runner takes out at least two defenders by running into them, which for me is borderline illegal at best.

As we know, the final try ultimately resulted from Weir's ill-fated crossfield kick - especially damaging as we needlessly turned a 3 match point loss to 5.

Can you blame the coaches? First try: Burleigh's out-on-the-full and Kinghorn defending the wrong man, both individual errors. The second: Weir's lack of focus in not getting onside, then collective lack of focus in getting across the field to match Ulster's flooding one side of the pitch. The third: lack of support for the ball carrier, then Burleigh needlessly buys the dummy run (which is of dubious legality). It seems we switched off and/or made silly errors, which is more of a player issue than coaching. I guess you can argue that the coaches have responsibility for making sure the players are conditioned to being focussed for 80 minutes...

Generally, as I mentioned after the Cardiff game I felt that one of our biggest issues was not supporting the ball carrier, as has been mentioned in this thread. Over the two games, Kinghorn, Mata and Dean in particular have made a number of breaks without supporting runners / guys hitting the ruck. I'm of the view that you don't blame someone getting isolated, you blame the guys who didn't support. This, together with lack of focus at key moments (skill execution or defence) is the biggest change compared to previous games.

I agree that our results have flattered to deceive - we aren't quite as good as our recent results have suggested. Nor have we suffered a major regression in the last 2 games. It can be a blip, but only if we address these issues and make sure we concentrate for 80 minutes again, and try to reduce simple execution errors. The fact that Scarlets are almost certainly home and hosed for 2nd place is actually an unexpected benefit for us, if they now rest key players next week, but it will only be a benefit if we front up like we have been doing for most of the season.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby royc on Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:25 pm

joe soap wrote:
royc wrote:It helps if you have a fast, nuggety openside, they won't always be the first to the breakdown but will be there or thereabouts. Ritchie is quite quick but didn't make much impression in that department. But he was not alone among the breakaways.
.


first paragraph is right.
Second one - no openside is anywhere near all attacking rucks, it isn't how pro rugby is played. In attack its forward pods, usually the same players will form a pod in similar areas of the park.


By 'breakdown', which is admittedly a rather vague term, I am referring to the period between the collision and the ref saying a ruck or maul has been formed, including the short interval until the rest of the troops arrive. The 'fast nuggety opensid'e, if up to scratch, will generally - as nominally the fittest and fastest forward - be the first or second person to the breakdown, wrestling for the ball or acting as first receiver or jackalling in the maul. This before the follow-on forces arrive and start forming pods. I was commenting that Ritchie did not get there or play that part, which Watson and Hardy regularly do.

Agree entirely that, when the pods are formed, the role of the openside flanker is elsewhere, they are on flank guard duty or covering behind in case the pods go pear-shaped.
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby joe soap on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:39 pm

royc wrote:By 'breakdown', which is admittedly a rather vague term, I am referring to the period between the collision and the ref saying a ruck or maul has been formed, including the short interval until the rest of the troops arrive. The 'fast nuggety opensid'e, if up to scratch, will generally - as nominally the fittest and fastest forward - be the first or second person to the breakdown, wrestling for the ball or acting as first receiver or jackalling in the maul. .




Sometimes, not generally. Who will be first there depends on so many factors. The openside may or may not be in a position to be first there. Could have made the tackle or turnover that created the break; may be on the wrong side of the pitch, etc.

When a break is made, you want someone on the shoulder; if they can't get on the shoulder or the pass isn't on when the "collision" happens the support player does the needful, be it winger, full back or openside or whoever. The problem Edinburgh have had for a few seasons is lack of support from backs or lack of interest in rucking in some cases. This game just had too many switched off. Richie may not have the acceleration of Hardie but he is quick over any distance for a back row and he has been an absolute one man breakdown for Edinburgh at times over the last two seasons
This game just had too many switched off. Could have had McCaw there at his peak and he couldn't have compensated.

What you descibe is undoubtedly part of an opensides necessary skillset, but I think you have an over romanticised and historical view of it in the overall context or modern pro rugby
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Re: Edinburgh Vs Ulster 6/4/2018

Postby joe soap on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:41 pm

royc wrote:Agree entirely that, when the pods are formed, the role of the openside flanker is elsewhere, they are on flank guard duty or covering behind in case the pods go pear-shaped.


the role is usually to be part of one of the pods.
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