Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat 15:5

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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby biffer on Sat May 19, 2018 9:49 am

bignose wrote:
biffer wrote:
Frenchy wrote:I didn't see Lacey doing much wrong either. The yellow card exercised a lot of people around me, but Grigg knew exactly what he was doing. I don't know the laws well enough to know whether the Gray try should have been given.


I'm pretty certain it should have been. Also the restart he took back to a scrum was wrong and he didn't play offside all night. And the number if times you heard him issuing an instruction at a breakdown three or more times without giving the penalty. And he didn't act on players backchat / appealing. And he didn't yellow the Scarlets boy at the end. That's just off the top of my head, pretty sure there were more. He's incompetent.


The Gray non-try was marginal but I think the decision was correct in the end. It was incredibly tight but the ball had not clearly and obviously touched the line before Gray made contact with it.

All the other stuff you point out about Lacey, I completely agree with.


I think that was partly what annoyed me, he took one look from one angle on something marginal.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby Tichtheid on Sat May 19, 2018 9:58 am

GaryIPA wrote:I am really happy we have Cockerill rather them Rennie. There's no emotion. With Cockerill you can see how he feels. You can see the excitement and that he wants to the ball and make every tackle himself. Exactly what we needed



Aye, all of this. I like how much he stresses application and attitude above everything- you get what you deserve on the park.

He seems to be a good judge of player, too. If his assessment of Charlie Shiel is correct we are on to a good thing.

On another note, I haven’t looked at the squad lists on the club site for a while but I was looking at it the other day, has McLelland been on there all season? Is he getting close to some game time?

I’m really looking forward to the U20s to see what he can do, allbeit probably behind a beaten pack.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby gowrie on Sat May 19, 2018 10:37 am

McLelland's a long term thing, I think so far he's managed a couple of bench appearances for Hawick. Maybe he's on a full deal, but I still don't think we'll see him play next season.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby Frenchy on Sat May 19, 2018 11:31 am

biffer wrote:I'm pretty certain it should have been. Also the restart he took back to a scrum was wrong and he didn't play offside all night. And the number if times you heard him issuing an instruction at a breakdown three or more times without giving the penalty. And he didn't act on players backchat / appealing. And he didn't yellow the Scarlets boy at the end. That's just off the top of my head, pretty sure there were more. He's incompetent.

Yes, the restart scrum was wrong, but seemed well within the acceptable bounds of human error, and I've forgotten whether they're allowed to use the replays to change decisions like that.

I was in the end stand, so couldn't judge any of the rest myself. Might watch it again though.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby disco on Sat May 19, 2018 1:02 pm

Frenchy wrote:
biffer wrote:I'm pretty certain it should have been. Also the restart he took back to a scrum was wrong and he didn't play offside all night. And the number if times you heard him issuing an instruction at a breakdown three or more times without giving the penalty. And he didn't act on players backchat / appealing. And he didn't yellow the Scarlets boy at the end. That's just off the top of my head, pretty sure there were more. He's incompetent.

Yes, the restart scrum was wrong, but seemed well within the acceptable bounds of human error, and I've forgotten whether they're allowed to use the replays to change decisions like that.

I was in the end stand, so couldn't judge any of the rest myself. Might watch it again though.

I'd say cceptable bounds of human error is reasonable where there's interpretation, multiple offences all happening at once or a decision has to be made while play is continuing. What that situation appeared to be though (from my understanding anyway) was 2 officials from the PRO14's elite panel applying the incorrect laws not once but twice. Which, if that was the case, is really, really poor.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby disco on Sat May 19, 2018 1:15 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
GaryIPA wrote:I am really happy we have Cockerill rather them Rennie. There's no emotion. With Cockerill you can see how he feels. You can see the excitement and that he wants to the ball and make every tackle himself. Exactly what we needed



Aye, all of this. I like how much he stresses application and attitude above everything- you get what you deserve on the park.

He seems to be a good judge of player, too. If his assessment of Charlie Shiel is correct we are on to a good thing.

On another note, I haven’t looked at the squad lists on the club site for a while but I was looking at it the other day, has McLelland been on there all season? Is he getting close to some game time?

I’m really looking forward to the U20s to see what he can do, allbeit probably behind a beaten pack.

What's his chat been about Shiel?

I've been collating the PRO14 stats for Edinburgh (hopefully do some analysis over the summer) and one thing that struck me was how the scrum halves were used this season. Despite Sean Kennedy only playing 40 minutes in the league this year it wasn't felt necessary / appropriate to give Shiel any game time at all. Essentially the minutes were split almost exactly 50/50 between SHC and Fowles.

Maybe the thinking is it was too early for Shiel but I would have thought the only way to see how likely it is he can step up to pro level, where he is, how quickly he can adapt is to get him in the pitch. Even a handful of 15/20 minute sub appearances would give a whole lot more to work over the summer/ in pre-season.

With Kennedy and Fowles still there and it looking likely that a direct replacement for SHC coming in how do Edinburgh get Shiel involved on a consistent basis? On the basis that he is probably a step down from the other scrum halves right now but given his potential if he's developed right he improves the team within a season or two.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby GaryIPA on Sat May 19, 2018 1:46 pm

disco wrote:
Frenchy wrote:
biffer wrote:I'm pretty certain it should have been. Also the restart he took back to a scrum was wrong and he didn't play offside all night. And the number if times you heard him issuing an instruction at a breakdown three or more times without giving the penalty. And he didn't act on players backchat / appealing. And he didn't yellow the Scarlets boy at the end. That's just off the top of my head, pretty sure there were more. He's incompetent.

Yes, the restart scrum was wrong, but seemed well within the acceptable bounds of human error, and I've forgotten whether they're allowed to use the replays to change decisions like that.

I was in the end stand, so couldn't judge any of the rest myself. Might watch it again though.

I'd say cceptable bounds of human error is reasonable where there's interpretation, multiple offences all happening at once or a decision has to be made while play is continuing. What that situation appeared to be though (from my understanding anyway) was 2 officials from the PRO14's elite panel applying the incorrect laws not once but twice. Which, if that was the case, is really, really poor.


But we all know all the officials are poor
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby Tichtheid on Sat May 19, 2018 2:09 pm

Disco, rightly or wrongly, Cockerill said publicly that Shiel is a very good player whilst Kennedy and Fowles are okay.

I think our pack took until very recently to start believing they could beat other teams up, Shiel maybe wasn’t the guy to place behind a pack trying to build confidence.

George Horne is the most obvious comparison in terms of age, If my calculations are corrrect, Horne made his Glasgow league debut at twenty one and a half, Shiel is 21 in December. If Shiel gets near Horne in terms of ability we’ll be very chuffed
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby Martin Bell on Sat May 19, 2018 4:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote:Disco, rightly or wrongly, Cockerill said publicly that Shiel is a very good player whilst Kennedy and Fowles are okay.

I think our pack took until very recently to start believing they could beat other teams up, Shiel maybe wasn’t the guy to place behind a pack trying to build confidence.

George Horne is the most obvious comparison in terms of age, If my calculations are corrrect, Horne made his Glasgow league debut at twenty one and a half, Shiel is 21 in December. If Shiel gets near Horne in terms of ability we’ll be very chuffed


Wise words, as ever. Charlie will be ready when he's ready. While I agree with Kevin's point about giving him a bit of gametime towards the end of the season, at least, there's no rush. I daresay we'll see him on the park next term.

To return to the match last night, that was two teams that I love watching. There was a brief moment around the hour when I thought that, despite everything, Glasgow could have made an amazing comeback. But I wonder whether coasting for some weeks after they'd guaranteed a home semi did them some harm. They looked some way off their usual sharpness, while the Scarlets were outstanding.

I take the points about some of the officiating, but that was not the difference. Like others, I can't understand the anti-Rennie chat, not least as he did OK at the Chiefs. Glasgow will be back stronger next season and I'm looking forward to that. Losing Finn and bringing on young Hastings may actually be no bad thing.

Looking forward to the final.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby disco on Sat May 19, 2018 6:43 pm

Tichtheid wrote:Disco, rightly or wrongly, Cockerill said publicly that Shiel is a very good player whilst Kennedy and Fowles are okay.

I think our pack took until very recently to start believing they could beat other teams up, Shiel maybe wasn’t the guy to place behind a pack trying to build confidence.

George Horne is the most obvious comparison in terms of age, If my calculations are corrrect, Horne made his Glasgow league debut at twenty one and a half, Shiel is 21 in December. If Shiel gets near Horne in terms of ability we’ll be very chuffed

That's positive (well for Shiel anyway). I take your point about his age (and Martin's point about not needing to rush) but it may not get any easier to find game time for him with Champions Cup matches instead of Challenge Cup. Plus everybody is going to be taking Edinburgh very seriously next season in the PRO14!

Hugh Fraser not coming through has probably pushed forward the timescale they need to develop Shiel on as well. He hopefully should be a little bit ahead of Horne (in some areas) at the same age due to wee George being a late(ish) convert to scrum half.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby biffer on Sat May 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Great game of rugby at the RDS today.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby The Chiel on Sat May 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Tichtheid wrote: . . .

George Horne is the most obvious comparison in terms of age, If my calculations are corrrect, Horne made his Glasgow league debut at twenty one and a half, Shiel is 21 in December. If Shiel gets near Horne in terms of ability we’ll be very chuffed


There is an age comparison, but Horne has also had the benefit of his time with Scottish in a hard physical league, and of course the sevens. He's way ahead on a learning curve. Which is only a fact, not a criticism of Shiel.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby macdone on Sun May 20, 2018 12:58 am

disco wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:Disco, rightly or wrongly, Cockerill said publicly that Shiel is a very good player whilst Kennedy and Fowles are okay.

I think our pack took until very recently to start believing they could beat other teams up, Shiel maybe wasn’t the guy to place behind a pack trying to build confidence.

George Horne is the most obvious comparison in terms of age, If my calculations are corrrect, Horne made his Glasgow league debut at twenty one and a half, Shiel is 21 in December. If Shiel gets near Horne in terms of ability we’ll be very chuffed

That's positive (well for Shiel anyway). I take your point about his age (and Martin's point about not needing to rush) but it may not get any easier to find game time for him with Champions Cup matches instead of Challenge Cup. Plus everybody is going to be taking Edinburgh very seriously next season in the PRO14!

Hugh Fraser not coming through has probably pushed forward the timescale they need to develop Shiel on as well. He hopefully should be a little bit ahead of Horne (in some areas) at the same age due to wee George being a late(ish) convert to scrum half.


The same will be the case with Callum Hunter-Hill. He's going to see a lot of game time this coming season having had 0 minutes this year. A combination of Bresler leaving and Carmichael making the Scotland squad mean he'll be in every match day squad during international windows, if not starting.
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby joe soap on Sun May 20, 2018 10:04 am

macdone wrote:The same will be the case with Callum Hunter-Hill. He's going to see a lot of game time this coming season having had 0 minutes this year. A combination of Bresler leaving and Carmichael making the Scotland squad mean he'll be in every match day squad during international windows, if not starting.


Wow. Carmichael makes one squad and suddenly he won't be available during international windows? Carmichael stepped up really well towards the end of this season but he has an awful lot to do to stay in the Scotland squad, lets see if he can get some time over the summer. Should Carmichael stay in Scotland squads then its likely one of Toolis or Gilchrist could lose out.
I hope CHH gets some game time and the chance to push the others for a place. If he does it will be because he has proved he is ready and worth of a spot in training - if he doesn't do that he won't be playing whoever is away except as an emergency stop gap. Which is how it should be. Players earn chances, they don't get them if they don't earn them
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Re: Pro14 Semi-Finals - Gla v Sca Fri 19:45 & Lei v Mun Sat

Postby joe soap on Sun May 20, 2018 10:07 am

biffer wrote:Great game of rugby at the RDS today.


not sure if that is sarcasm or not.

it was a tight game with a close finish, but it was another Irish borefest. It was a good game if you like kick and chase - more kicks than any game over the weekend by quite a margin
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