Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:49 am

I'm pretty relaxed about this, If he was deemed to be better than Boyle then it makes sense to move him and get him game time. What's the point in having a great young player in the stand? We are well stocked at 7 and will be for a while yet. Suppose the only thing it coudl have done was brign him in and let Watson or Ritchie go to free up some resource for elsewhere in the squad. Always a tricky balance in Scotland.

Im probably more concerned with the likes of Chamberlain who have stalled a bit. I was hoping te S6 woudl give him the minutes and platform to kick on a bit hopefully that happens next year.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:13 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:I'm pretty relaxed about this, If he was deemed to be better than Boyle then it makes sense to move him and get him game time. What's the point in having a great young player in the stand? We are well stocked at 7 and will be for a while yet. Suppose the only thing it coudl have done was brign him in and let Watson or Ritchie go to free up some resource for elsewhere in the squad. Always a tricky balance in Scotland.

Im probably more concerned with the likes of Chamberlain who have stalled a bit. I was hoping te S6 woudl give him the minutes and platform to kick on a bit hopefully that happens next year.


Chamberlain isn't contracted for next year so not sure he'll be playing Super6 as I think he'll leave if Kinghorn is a full time 10 now.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:25 am

robdinsdale wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
JDCSR wrote:I think it just came down to both him and Boyle being very promising prospects and it getting to the point where we were barely going to give any gametime to one let alone both. And Boyle being preferred to keep on at the time.

Massive credit to Darge for what he's done at Glasgow, Gordon is nae bad and takes some doing to keep him out the side.

I wonder if Boyle could be as good if he had a half dozen starts.


Boyle has played and never really shown too much. Whereas Darge was motm on his first match for Glasgow! Maybe Boyle will one day be a great player. But Darge was immediately obviously a special player. I agree Tom Gordon is great but he's miles away from Darge. It's hard to see anything but pretty awful management from the Edinburgh coaches at the time.


Hindsight is amazing but I don't think you will find many coaches who would look much further than rotating between Watson, Richie and Crosbie if they had those options. The first two are legitimately class on the international stage and Crosbie is an absolute trooper.

Darge has taken his chance well at Glasgow, but they played him because they were struggling to get a back row on the pitch at times last season, not because they were making a choice to invest in his development.


True but Ritchie and Watson were in a lot of bubbles and Crosbie was having a down year. It was guys like Miller getting a lot of gametime. Who incidentally is nowhere near Glasgow's starting 15.

I'm not saying we didn't chose to develop (we didn't, and that's a separate issue). I'm saying how on earth we had this guy in our squad training daily and nobody saw the clear and obvious talent he has. Darge is so obviously a phenom. Just how had coaches missed that?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby The Chiel on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:26 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:I'm pretty relaxed about this, If he was deemed to be better than Boyle then it makes sense to move him and get him game time. What's the point in having a great young player in the stand? We are well stocked at 7 and will be for a while yet. Suppose the only thing it coudl have done was brign him in and let Watson or Ritchie go to free up some resource for elsewhere in the squad. Always a tricky balance in Scotland.
.


Whilst absolutely acknowledging it's the silly season, rugby365 are rumouring Bill Mata to Bristol. Although every agent and their brother are referencing Bristol for their players.

Whilst this borders on heresy, if true it could be argued it would free up cash, a back row place, and he's 30 and has been injury prone. Against that - well, he's Bill Mata ! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:29 am

JDCSR wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
JDCSR wrote:I think it just came down to both him and Boyle being very promising prospects and it getting to the point where we were barely going to give any gametime to one let alone both. And Boyle being preferred to keep on at the time.

Massive credit to Darge for what he's done at Glasgow, Gordon is nae bad and takes some doing to keep him out the side.

I wonder if Boyle could be as good if he had a half dozen starts.


Boyle has played and never really shown too much. Whereas Darge was motm on his first match for Glasgow! Maybe Boyle will one day be a great player. But Darge was immediately obviously a special player. I agree Tom Gordon is great but he's miles away from Darge. It's hard to see anything but pretty awful management from the Edinburgh coaches at the time.


Boyle was a better player for the under 20s, though as above Darge was coming back from a bad injury and was played at 8 to accommodate Boyle at 7.

Gordon also isn't miles away from Darge, the former was by some distance Glasgow's best player last season and Darge has had to be bloody good to keep him out.

Fair play to Darge, he's been superb and it certainly looks a clanger from Edinburgh for letting him go but would he have got any more gametime here than Boyle has with Watson, Crosbie and Ritchie all options at 7? Come on now.

I'd call it great management from the SRU making the call that got him into Glasgow's 7 shirt. Part of being the bigger brother is that you sometimes have to share your things.


Was he better? Not sure about this one. Darge had 3 years in the 20s having been picked up when he was 17. And was great from age 17 onwards. I guess he had some injuries but I don't remember ever thinking one was much better than the other.

I'm not saying it's a clanger letting him go, it worked well for Darge, Scotland and Glasgow. I'm not saying he should be a weekly starter. I am wondering how Darge who looks like the most promising youngster in Scotland currently was allowed to walk across to Glasgow and for the 9 months look like a backrow who will be giving Watson a run for the Scotland 7 shirt and didn't ever get a look in. You'd think a coach would see this guy is mustard and we have Ally Miller starting at 7 let's put him in.

You have to question the talent ID. I refuse to believe he was anything but very good in training considering how well he played from day 1 for Glasgow.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:38 am

The Chiel wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:I'm pretty relaxed about this, If he was deemed to be better than Boyle then it makes sense to move him and get him game time. What's the point in having a great young player in the stand? We are well stocked at 7 and will be for a while yet. Suppose the only thing it coudl have done was brign him in and let Watson or Ritchie go to free up some resource for elsewhere in the squad. Always a tricky balance in Scotland.
.


Whilst absolutely acknowledging it's the silly season, rugby365 are rumouring Bill Mata to Bristol. Although every agent and their brother are referencing Bristol for their players.

Whilst this borders on heresy, if true it could be argued it would free up cash, a back row place, and he's 30 and has been injury prone. Against that - well, he's Bill Mata ! :lol: :lol:



Being brutal about it , I would take that now. If Bradbury can keep this form and we have Haining and Muncaster it is clearly an area where we have depth. It would allow us to strengthen in different areas, centre and 9 are still a bit short on quality.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby JDCSR on Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:39 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I don't remember ever thinking one was much better than the other.


It's all very easy in hindsight but perhaps the Edinburgh coaches feel exactly the same as you did prior to his move to Glasgow.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:02 pm

JDCSR wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:I don't remember ever thinking one was much better than the other.


It's all very easy in hindsight but perhaps the Edinburgh coaches feel exactly the same as you did prior to his move to Glasgow.


The Edinburgh coaches have a huge amount more information though. They see them daily in training, they have all the stats and data, they're professionals most importantly. If all the coaches did was watch an under20s game occasionally fair enough.

It's a concern of mine that someone so good from day 1 just never got a look in here. It's not like Darge left and after a year or two hit this level, he hit it a week or two after leaving! It's clearly an issue in talent identification. Hopefully the blame lies squarely with Cockers but would want to know Lawrie's thoughts on this.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby JDCSR on Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:25 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
JDCSR wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:I don't remember ever thinking one was much better than the other.


It's all very easy in hindsight but perhaps the Edinburgh coaches feel exactly the same as you did prior to his move to Glasgow.


The Edinburgh coaches have a huge amount more information though. They see them daily in training, they have all the stats and data, they're professionals most importantly. If all the coaches did was watch an under20s game occasionally fair enough.

It's a concern of mine that someone so good from day 1 just never got a look in here. It's not like Darge left and after a year or two hit this level, he hit it a week or two after leaving! It's clearly an issue in talent identification. Hopefully the blame lies squarely with Cockers but would want to know Lawrie's thoughts on this.


Yes and they chose to give what fleeting minutes were available to Boyle whom they must have rated higher, rightly or wrongly in hindsight. Perhaps Darge wasn't that impressive in training and perhaps Boyle was more impressive. Boyle has always been a big prospect too and may still come through strongly. I don't think the coaching staff would have given him his 5 minutes ahead of Darge for a laugh.

You're using hindsight to assume the coaching staff were somehow either blind or idiots rather than there having been some sort of much more likely explanation.

Cockerill's reign won't be famed for giving the kids minutes but given the proven players who appeared at 7 last season being Ritchie, Watson, Crosbie and Miller (who was also generally excellent for us) I'll give him a pass on this one.

Clearly nobody at Edinburgh knew just how good Darge was and all credit lies with Darge for showing us and Wilson for giving him his shot.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:34 pm

I'm not saying they're blind or idiots. I'm saying it's a concern they got their talent identification quite badly wrong. No need to use emotional language. We need coaches who can identify talent. If they can't identify we fail the first hurdle of development.

I agree good on Wilson and Glasgow. Thanks to them Scotland have an extremely talented and high performing 7 available to us.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:56 pm

The same Wilson and Glasgow who let Sykes go? (may have been Rennie actually)

No coaches get them all right and players develop at different stages, this sort of thing happens all the time. Glasgow have been crying out for a qulity 7 for a few years, for all Gibbons and Gordon were talked up they were never in the top bracket. Im surprised how good Darge has been, maybe the shift was just at the right time, to he right team to give him that lift.

You could argue in terms of signings we took the likes of Haining who was a journeyman player and made him international standard, Venter looks to be progressing really well, so it is swings and roundabouts.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:58 pm

The Chiel wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:I'm pretty relaxed about this, If he was deemed to be better than Boyle then it makes sense to move him and get him game time. What's the point in having a great young player in the stand? We are well stocked at 7 and will be for a while yet. Suppose the only thing it coudl have done was brign him in and let Watson or Ritchie go to free up some resource for elsewhere in the squad. Always a tricky balance in Scotland.
.


Whilst absolutely acknowledging it's the silly season, rugby365 are rumouring Bill Mata to Bristol. Although every agent and their brother are referencing Bristol for their players.

Whilst this borders on heresy, if true it could be argued it would free up cash, a back row place, and he's 30 and has been injury prone. Against that - well, he's Bill Mata ! :lol: :lol:


Don't see how Bristol get him with the salary cap change without some big name departures...perhaps Radradra our way :)
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:25 pm

We've got Boyle, Mish, Crosbie and Kunavula listed as openside flankers, Ritchie can easily play in the 7 shirt too.

I'm happy that it has worked out so well for Darge along the road, it makes the competition for the Scotland places more fierce. I know there is a lot of roarin and greetin when players move between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but we have to do this, keeping Miller and Darge at Edinburgh would have made no sense, just as Pyrgos moving to Edinburgh made sense for all concerned.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:52 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:The same Wilson and Glasgow who let Sykes go? (may have been Rennie actually)

No coaches get them all right and players develop at different stages, this sort of thing happens all the time. Glasgow have been crying out for a qulity 7 for a few years, for all Gibbons and Gordon were talked up they were never in the top bracket. Im surprised how good Darge has been, maybe the shift was just at the right time, to he right team to give him that lift.

You could argue in terms of signings we took the likes of Haining who was a journeyman player and made him international standard, Venter looks to be progressing really well, so it is swings and roundabouts.


Sykes going was obviously a mistake in hindsight. But he didn't turn up the week of and put in a man of the match performance and then a 9 month run when he's one of the teams best player. It took about a year and a half for Sykes to become a very good player (a good portion of that spent in the gym I might add). And he still isn't a weekly starter. If Darge had left played a bit in a year and do a huge amount of hard work in the gym and then he became a really great back up with starting potential that's unideal but is what it is. Darge went to Glasgow and that weekend was motm and has been a star for the next 9 months.

Don't really see why we need to defend the coaches. Is it best for Scotland and the SRU Darge is at Glasgow? Yes. Was in Watson, Ritchie and Crosbie keeping him out the team every week? No. Is it a failure in talent IQ he didn't get a look in here? Yes. The coaches
completely missed on maybe the best young player in Scotland. It's a really bad look however you slice it as Ally Miller was the one playing ahead of him and Boyle it wasn't Ritchie and Watson every week. Danny Wilson would be laughed out of town if he started Miller over Darge 6 months later in a consequencial fixture.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:22 pm

Ally Miller started seven games for us last season, four at openside, three at 8. He was generally excellent every time he played for us.
Crosbie stared nine league games, 7 at 7, two at 6.
Boyle had four league appearances from the bench.

Darge got 18 minutes for us against Leinster when we got battered

I think I recall seeing him on our injured list last season for a few weeks.

The point being that a very well-performing Miller and Crosbie were probably keeping Darge out of the side for the few months he was with us, in Miller's case it was for four games at openside
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