Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

RaboDirect Pro12 & Heineken Match Discussion, Referee Retribution, and Player Powwow

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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:07 pm

joe soap wrote:young pack played exactly like their more experienced colleagues, huff and puff and slow ball. Actually better than some of the more experienced ones one of whom needs binned. Oh, and CHH is a keeper, only leader on the park for Edinburgh. Cockerill should make him captain now and build a pack around him who will perform every week.


CHH is still the fifth best second row we have when all fit though, I don't think you can build the team around him until he improves as a player. I think HH and Hodgson have improved every week which is all you can ask. Would be interested to see him play alongside Toolis and GG.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:13 pm

I don’t think either Pyrgos or Hickey are bad players but the combination is not providing the spark when needed. Both appear to have a similar conservative style and with almost all our game management/tempo etc coming from Pyrgos it is not clear then why we then have Hickey outside him to provide what appears to be primarily another kicking option. We have got some of the most exciting backs we have had in a long time but are really struggling this season to get them working regularly and effectively together particularly when the pack is not dominant.

I wonder if Hickey would be better if he was taking more responsibility and control of the game. Get the ball to him earlier to allow him the time to make a decision and run the game off 10 rather than 9. Pyrgos and VDW looks a better balance for controlling the game off 9 perhaps Kennedy (Sheil) and Hickey would work better to control the game off 10.

One major note in his favour, Hickeys place kicking has been very good this season.

Will be interesting to see which 10 gets the nod for the first Newcastle match.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:18 pm

Has to be VDW doesnt it?

Agree on Hickey, he came with a reputation as a runner and play maker, strange that he now seems conservative.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Has to be VDW doesnt it?

Agree on Hickey, he came with a reputation as a runner and play maker, strange that he now seems conservative.


vdW comes on late in matches usually when we're chasing the game so is told to run it? Hickey told to run the game from the start I'm guessing.

Pyrgos' box kicks aren't working lately.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:34 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Pyrgos' box kicks aren't working lately.


They are still for the most part well placed for us to chase and compete...but it just takes so long setting them up I could have jumped in the car and got down to Rodney parade in time to be under one of them last night.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Weegie59 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:17 pm

I think part of the 'Pyrgos problem' is that there seems no faith in any alternatives that might be on the books. To me that means:

1/ He is forced to play all games and all minutes . No time to reflect, rest or recover.

2/ Nobody looks like they are pushing him for the position

Personally I am not a fan of his and think he is average for a capped player but what happens if he gets injured? Doubt we will loose him for 6Ns as looks like 4th in line which is one blessing.

Re Cockerill and Internationals- It has always been a fact that we would lose our best at these times and have suffered recently from our 'success' last year. However it seems to me that a number of the non-Scots (presumably bought to cover in such times) have not shown up on the field. You can't legislate for injuries but you can for this. It does seem strange with a squad of 40+ ( plus presumably 7s guys)we still cannot put out a respectable team at these times!

Re tactics , coaching etc cannot disagree with the number of negative comments already mentioned

Finally ,although it was not the main reason for loosing, that referee was (and has in the past ) been ridiculously bad and shouldn't be allowed to referee a 3rd fifteen school game!
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby doedin on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:19 pm

Pyrgos is a decent player and we needed some stability at 9. I dont think he is completely to blame for our slow ball problems. He looks a different player when VdW plays and I suspect that when Pyrgos is looking for options at a ruck he gets a sore neck looking so far back behind the gain line to see where Hickey is sitting. VdW plays flatter and demands fast ball whereas Hickey has been posted missing for large parts of games he has played, I suspect Pyrgos has little option but to slow the ball and kick. He certainly got the Weegie line running when playing with Russell or Horne!

On another point I liked Dean's contribution. Dont mind him getting annoyed with the ref, at least he showed he cared and was trying his heart out. Ok he missed a tackle for their try but his try should have been allowed in my opinion, not a double movement, and he created Fife's try for us. He looks for more comfortable at 12 than he does at 13. Again not sure why an early sub.

CHH does look like a real prospect, big and aggressive. Needs to play a few games alongside GC and behind our 1st choice front row to show what he can do. I hope the likes of him, Carmichael and Crosbie bring some edge to the pack over next year or two.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:31 pm

Dean absolutely has to make that tackle though. I'm a huge fan of Dean but he has to make that tackle. It cost 5 points and Williams is illusive but you have to make it.

The no try I think was correct, there's placing a ball and there's launching yourself forward. I think if the shoe was on the other foot and the drags 12 did that people would be saying it's a good decision.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:45 pm

It was a try, there is nothing in the laws about "double movement" just as there is nothing about having control over the ball when grounding, it's one of these myths that seem to have legs.

The tackled player has to place the ball, usually behind himself after a tackle, but he is allowed to stretch out and ground the ball to score. What he is not allowed to do is propel himself off the ground and then place the ball over the line.

What Dean did was stretch out and place the ball over the line, his feet did not move forward from where he was, it was a try, plain and simple.

For me Dean was very much in credit over the course, even allowing for the missed tackle, he regularly breaks the line and his distribution has really improved, almost beyond measure - I'm not sure he would have made such a good job of the scoring pass to Dougie a while back.

I blimmin loved it when he swore at the ref, silly penalty to give away, aye, but rather get done for being too much up for it than lacklustre and not giving a monkey's.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby BruceLee on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:03 am

Tichtheid wrote:It was a try, there is nothing in the laws about "double movement" just as there is nothing about having control over the ball when grounding, it's one of these myths that seem to have legs.

The tackled player has to place the ball, usually behind himself after a tackle, but he is allowed to stretch out and ground the ball to score. What he is not allowed to do is propel himself off the ground and then place the ball over the line.

What Dean did was stretch out and place the ball over the line, his feet did not move forward from where he was, it was a try, plain and simple.

For me Dean was very much in credit over the course, even allowing for the missed tackle, he regularly breaks the line and his distribution has really improved, almost beyond measure - I'm not sure he would have made such a good job of the scoring pass to Dougie a while back.

I blimmin loved it when he swore at the ref, silly penalty to give away, aye, but rather get done for being too much up for it than lacklustre and not giving a monkey's.

I have to agree with you on the Try,it looked 100% a good try by Dean.The TMO got that one wrong.Hopefully we never have to endure that Ref for a while; if ever. He was shockingly poor.It was a TonySpreadbury poor perfomance by us against an average Dragons team,but small margins can lose you a match and thats where the disallowed try came back to haunt us.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:08 am

BruceLee wrote:I have to agree with you on the Try,it looked 100% a good try by Dean.The TMO got that one wrong.Hopefully we never have to endure that Ref for a while; if ever. He was shockingly poor.It was a TonySpreadbury poor perfomance by us against an average Dragons team,but small margins can lose you a match and thats where the disallowed try came back to haunt us.



I'm sure the Drags fans had complaints too, but there were a few shockers from our point of view. There was a scrum when Sutherland had just come on and he melted his prop, the tighthead just buckled under the pressure and Sutherland was penalised.

I was doing a Chris Dean at my computer screen at that point.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby The Chiel on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:48 am

Berry's non stop attempts to get the ( Welsh ) TMO to make the decisions he as the ref should take was just shameful. Appeared to be trying to hide behind the fact that the TMO had an HD screen and he didn't . . . I thought it sounded like the TMO wasn't too happy with Berry's attempts to put him on the spot either.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Tichtheid on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:55 am

The Chiel wrote:Berry's non stop attempts to get the ( Welsh ) TMO to make the decisions he as the ref should take was just shameful. Appeared to be trying to hide behind the fact that the TMO had an HD screen and he didn't . . . I thought it sounded like the TMO wasn't too happy with Berry's attempts to put him on the spot either.


I think you're right and I wonder if Darcy Graham's try would have still been awarded if Dean's had?
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby BruceLee on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:58 am

[quote="The Chiel"]Berry's non stop attempts to get the ( Welsh ) TMO to make the decisions he as the ref should take was just shameful. Appeared to be trying to hide behind the fact that the TMO had an HD screen and he didn't . . . I thought it sounded like the TMO wasn't too happy with Berry's attempts to put him on the spot either.[/
That was the impression i got as well,it seems to be the norm with less than competent refs,unfortunately.
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Re: Dragons v Edinburgh Sun 25th November

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:01 pm

Tichtheid wrote:It was a try, there is nothing in the laws about "double movement" just as there is nothing about having control over the ball when grounding, it's one of these myths that seem to have legs.

The tackled player has to place the ball, usually behind himself after a tackle, but he is allowed to stretch out and ground the ball to score. What he is not allowed to do is propel himself off the ground and then place the ball over the line.

What Dean did was stretch out and place the ball over the line, his feet did not move forward from where he was, it was a try, plain and simple.

For me Dean was very much in credit over the course, even allowing for the missed tackle, he regularly breaks the line and his distribution has really improved, almost beyond measure - I'm not sure he would have made such a good job of the scoring pass to Dougie a while back.

I blimmin loved it when he swore at the ref, silly penalty to give away, aye, but rather get done for being too much up for it than lacklustre and not giving a monkey's.


Fair play I haven't read the law but it just looked a bit off for me. Gibbins great try for Glasgow looked a good ball placement whereas Dean looked a bit strange.

Don't get me wrong I thought Dean was our best player. I'd play Dean 12 and Scott 13 going forward.
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