Heineken Cup QF v Munster

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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:03 am

I also think we should accept Cockers isn't going to coach an all singing all dancing expansive backline. He's a forward dominanted kind of guy.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Tichtheid on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:59 am

@bignose, I feel these guys could slot in to a top class back line one at a time, but all at once they are that crucial half a yard off the pace. JJ has produced the occasional bit of genuine flair (his try v Benetton was it?) and Dean is improving- he is a totally different player to the guy who couldn’t pass when playing 13.
I find it hard to take that when vdW lines up a kick to touch I have my heart in my mouth because there is a fair chance he will miss a 100m wide target, but his goal kicking has been very good.
There are times Pyrgos makes Wee Greeg look reckless.

Our first choice back three are genuine game breakers, three of the most potent attackers in the league and we are getting another couple with the potential to add to that.

Graham, Kinghorn and vdM have the same backs coach as the others in the team.

Perhaps it is in the coaching, I can’t say for sure as we haven’t seen enough of Scott and Bennett together to compare properly
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Weegie on Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:13 pm

gunneria wrote:Secondly, if they wanted Pyrgos being thrown down reviewed they should have started a fight which would've forced the matter. Whining at the ref never works.


We lack the cynicism of other teams. The reversed penalty would never have happened but for the Hollywood by Beirne. I don't like it, but we either have start playing that game or accept we will end up frustrated.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby macdone on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:56 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I also think we should accept Cockers isn't going to coach an all singing all dancing expansive backline. He's a forward dominanted kind of guy.


Not sure I agree - he worked brilliantly with Pat Howard and Matt O´Connor. But it's quite possible he got burned by the Aaron Mauger experience which cost him his job. He may not want anyone who's going to challenge \ undermine him. But it's costing us big time.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby bignose on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:02 pm

Tichtheid wrote:@bignose, I feel these guys could slot in to a top class back line one at a time, but all at once they are that crucial half a yard off the pace.


That crucial half yard comes from 9 - knowing when to go and when to slow. Accepted that the decision about how to structure your attacking framework will be overall driven from higher than Hodge, and that in general we are a forwards-oriented side right now, but coaching should be able to sharpen the ability to run later-phase lines and timings. I've not seen any evidence that there is that level of input coming from the backs/attack coaching team over the past heaven-knows-how-many-years.

Tichtheid wrote:JJ has produced the occasional bit of genuine flair (his try v Benetton was it?) and Dean is improving- he is a totally different player to the guy who couldn’t pass when playing 13.
I find it hard to take that when vdW lines up a kick to touch I have my heart in my mouth because there is a fair chance he will miss a 100m wide target, but his goal kicking has been very good.

I believe that Hodge is also a kicking from hand specialist coach. I certainly remember attending a "Masterclass" with him in charge many years ago (No, I wasn't impressed then either)

Tichtheid wrote:There are times Pyrgos makes Wee Greeg look reckless.


Agreed. And that seems to be a deliberate policy which has worked in some circumstances. When he gets his box-kicks right and the chase is timed well then it's great. The Glasgow games are a perfect illustration. As I said earlier, that approach probably comes from Cockerill.

Tichtheid wrote:Our first choice back three are genuine game breakers, three of the most potent attackers in the league and we are getting another couple with the potential to add to that.

Graham, Kinghorn and vdM have the same backs coach as the others in the team.


They do, and imagine how effective they could be in an attacking structure that made opportunities for them rather than them having to make the chances themselves.


Tichtheid wrote:Perhaps it is in the coaching, I can’t say for sure as we haven’t seen enough of Scott and Bennett together to compare properly


I'v seen enough games played by teams coached by Hodge over the past few years to know where I think the problem is.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby BigD163 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:07 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I also think we should accept Cockers isn't going to coach an all singing all dancing expansive backline. He's a forward dominanted kind of guy.


That is true, but what was missing on Saturday imo was any "heads up play" by 9 and 10 identifying oppertunities.

I doubt RCs game plan restricts them from seeing and taking advantages of situations as they arise.

@tichtheid the back 3 do have the same coach. That doesn't mean they are being coached well. They have all been lethal since day 1 which suggests it is little to do with Hodge.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:57 am

BigD163 wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:I also think we should accept Cockers isn't going to coach an all singing all dancing expansive backline. He's a forward dominanted kind of guy.


That is true, but what was missing on Saturday imo was any "heads up play" by 9 and 10 identifying oppertunities.

I doubt RCs game plan restricts them from seeing and taking advantages of situations as they arise.

@tichtheid the back 3 do have the same coach. That doesn't mean they are being coached well. They have all been lethal since day 1 which suggests it is little to do with Hodge.


No but Pyrgos can play fast I just think he's told to control the match more than he was at Glasgow. Again, that's not saying he isn't a problem but I don't think he's the one deciding to slow it to a glacial pace.

Agree on the backline - it was promising how much they got involved on Saturday. Need that more, I'd certainly like to see Kinghorn more at first receiver.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:58 am

Weegie wrote:
gunneria wrote:Secondly, if they wanted Pyrgos being thrown down reviewed they should have started a fight which would've forced the matter. Whining at the ref never works.


We lack the cynicism of other teams. The reversed penalty would never have happened but for the Hollywood by Beirne. I don't like it, but we either have start playing that game or accept we will end up frustrated.


Would never have happened if Schoeman didn't barge into him however soft.

The blame ends with Schoeman.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Wottie on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:10 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Would never have happened if Schoeman didn't barge into him however soft.

The blame ends with Schoeman.


I think that is harsh. 99 times out of 100 nothing happens there. It’s not impacting play as the game has stopped. It wasn’t violent or dangerous it was a mere tap with someone standing his ground as players ran through a contested area of the field. The Oscar winning dive won the penalty, that and a TMO who saw something more on it than all other pundits. Here’s what the guys at Eggchasers thought about the two main incidents (37 mins in)

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the ... d5db870c5e
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby KenMavor on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:52 am

Wottie wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Would never have happened if Schoeman didn't barge into him however soft.

The blame ends with Schoeman.


I think that is harsh. 99 times out of 100 nothing happens there. It’s not impacting play as the game has stopped. It wasn’t violent or dangerous it was a mere tap with someone standing his ground as players ran through a contested area of the field. The Oscar winning dive won the penalty, that and a TMO who saw something more on it than all other pundits. Here’s what the guys at Eggchasers thought about the two main incidents (37 mins in)

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the ... d5db870c5e


I disagree with this.

If it hadn't been Schoeman it would have been someone else....

I think Beirne went, intentionally, looking for someone to clatter into him and vice versa.
Look at the field position. For sure Schoeman reacted but Bierne knew what he was doing and then played it through the process to milk it for all it was worth.

It was a premeditated to get a penalty. Similar to Hoggs "it's not soccer" event and Niko M milking event. Similar to Andy Haden's 1978 line out dive.

Beirne knew what he wanted and needed to do. He just needed to pick his moment and person and milk it for all it's worth. I think Nigel got suckered on this one......he will be annoyed when he looks back on this one as he usually is pretty hot on these events.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby BigD163 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:59 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Weegie wrote:
gunneria wrote:Secondly, if they wanted Pyrgos being thrown down reviewed they should have started a fight which would've forced the matter. Whining at the ref never works.


We lack the cynicism of other teams. The reversed penalty would never have happened but for the Hollywood by Beirne. I don't like it, but we either have start playing that game or accept we will end up frustrated.


Would never have happened if Schoeman didn't barge into him however soft.

The blame ends with Schoeman.


I agree with this.

Two major and completely avoidable moments of indiscipline cost a victory that was well within the grasp of the team.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby TheSmidge on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:01 am

It's interesting that comments about our responsibility for the defeat have largely fallen to blaming the 9-10 axis, mainly the former.

The plain fact is that the box kicking is a tactic that has worked on many occasions this season, but simply didn't in this game. It was clear early on that it wasn't working and so either Pyrgos did not seek to vary them through initiative OR he was under instruction to keep persevering. I did think that the outbreak of sunshine in the 2nd half, directly in the Munster defence's eyes, could have had an impact but it wasn't appreciable.

The issue with VDW is difficult to pin down. When we are playing with front foot ball and he is playing much flatter to the line, then that is when he seems to play best. From where I was sitting, he did seem to be much deeper than normal, presumably to allow more time on the ball due to the ferocity of the Munster defence. But then our normal tactics were a bit nullified, unless Darcy got the ball, when the excitement in the crowd went noticeably up.

In the end, we didn't take our chances. Despite the effort to keep the ball alive in the red zone, there was a sense that it would take something really special to break down the Munster defence, which never came.

However, as with many of the decisions that Scotland suffered during the 6N, we simply cannot ignore the material impact of a couple of Gauzerre's decisions. There is no way that the first Munster try should have stood and I cannot understand why he didn't go to the TMO for another look. Murray took out Pyrgos after the whistle in an aggressive fashion, opening up a hole in our defence for Earls to score. Regardless of whether Pyrgos should have been retreating and couldn't have tackled Earls until he withdrew to the try line, the space opened up was material. AND the act of foul play superseded the deliberate knock-on and the penalty should've been reversed. I also fail to understand how he didn't have a look at the tackle on Darcy in the air. Replays we could see suggested there was a pull on him once he had the ball, so it wasn't a "fair challenge".
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby BigD163 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:05 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:I also think we should accept Cockers isn't going to coach an all singing all dancing expansive backline. He's a forward dominanted kind of guy.


That is true, but what was missing on Saturday imo was any "heads up play" by 9 and 10 identifying oppertunities.

I doubt RCs game plan restricts them from seeing and taking advantages of situations as they arise.

@tichtheid the back 3 do have the same coach. That doesn't mean they are being coached well. They have all been lethal since day 1 which suggests it is little to do with Hodge.


No but Pyrgos can play fast I just think he's told to control the match more than he was at Glasgow. Again, that's not saying he isn't a problem but I don't think he's the one deciding to slow it to a glacial pace.

Agree on the backline - it was promising how much they got involved on Saturday. Need that more, I'd certainly like to see Kinghorn more at first receiver.


I think we are broadly agreeing on Pyrgos. The game plan is restricting him (and VdW at times because of how slow the ball is) but I do think he and VdW missed opportunities when Munster were sitting with 4 guys back to stick it through the hands (not daft miss passes) with a bit of pace.

Agree on Kinghorn.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:07 pm

Yeah they need to stop the ridiculous miss passes, how can professional rugby players not run, catch and pass at the same time. Annoys me all our attacking moves involve a miss pass of some sort.

Misspasses are great if you have the proper players - the Toulouse Racing thriller Ntamack and Russell were zinging miss passes beautifully. A world of difference with what our backs do.

I don't understand it.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby joe soap on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:40 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I also think we should accept Cockers isn't going to coach an all singing all dancing expansive backline. He's a forward dominanted kind of guy.


you are on the mark 100% (and there were a couple of delusional posts earlier on this thread suggesting he would change to wide wide to run them off their feet). Not going to happen. Doesn't mean back won't play a bigger part, and they should do
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