Heineken Cup QF v Munster

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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby gunneria on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:21 pm

Intense game and we had the possession/territory to win by a good margin. Not using the backs more, at the right moments, cost us I feel.
Two things about their first score, as it was close to me. It was clearly a scrum for us as it was a Munster knock on. Not sure why the touchy didn't spot as it was right beside him. Secondly, if they wanted Pyrgos being thrown down reviewed they should have started a fight which would've forced the matter. Whining at the ref never works.
Just have to put all effort into the league now.
Last edited by gunneria on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Tichtheid on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:22 pm

We desperately need Scott and Bennett back up to full speed, our half backs just aren’t good enough at this level.

I hope the Fijian guys will make a difference, our pack can go toe to toe with anyone in Europe, I feel, though a bit more depth at lock wouldn’t hurt.

Shiel looks good but very raw, obviously

I don’t think Hodge is the problem, the quality from nine to thirteen is
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby bignose on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote:I don’t think Hodge is the problem, the quality from nine to thirteen is


What evidence do you base that on, exactly?
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Tichtheid on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:33 pm

bignose wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:I don’t think Hodge is the problem, the quality from nine to thirteen is


What evidence do you base that on, exactly?



From watching all season

We have scored some good tries off set piece ball, that is straight off the training ground, ie from Hodge.

We struggle to score through the backs after we get to around four or five phases.

Pyrgos, vdW, Dean and JJ are decent pros, but not my idea of a Heineken Cup business end backline
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby TheSmidge on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:51 pm

gunneria wrote:Intense game and we had the possession/territory to win by a good margin. Not using the backs more, at the right moments, cost us I feel.
Two things about their first score, as it was close to me. It was clearly a scrum for us as it was a Munster knock on. Not sure why the touchy didn't spot as it was right beside him. Secondly, if they wanted Pyrgos being thrown down reviewed they should have started a fight which would've forced the matter. Whining at the ref never works.
Just have to put all effort into the league now.


We were close by as well and definitely looked like a Munster knock-on. Couldn’t understand what the pen was for at the time but have now seen it and it was clearly for a deliberate knock on from Pyrgos. But Murray then throws him down wrestling style and creates the gap. Not a chance that should’ve stood. Disgraceful not to review it and penalty should’ve beeen reversed.

Haven’t seen the challenge in the air or Schoemann’s “nudge” again yet, but have some concerns about the refereeing of those as well.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:41 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
bignose wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:I don’t think Hodge is the problem, the quality from nine to thirteen is


What evidence do you base that on, exactly?



From watching all season

We have scored some good tries off set piece ball, that is straight off the training ground, ie from Hodge.

We struggle to score through the backs after we get to around four or five phases.

Pyrgos, vdW, Dean and JJ are decent pros, but not my idea of a Heineken Cup business end backline


A lot of those set piece tries have involved Dean.

Those four are limited (as is Matt Scott and who knows what Mark Bennett will be).

Good coaches get the best out of the players, I am not sure Hodge is. They play far, far, far too deep. One phase Hodge gas good ideas but after two or three ehhhhh
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby The Nudger on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:55 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
bignose wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:I don’t think Hodge is the problem, the quality from nine to thirteen is


What evidence do you base that on, exactly?



From watching all season

We have scored some good tries off set piece ball, that is straight off the training ground, ie from Hodge.

We struggle to score through the backs after we get to around four or five phases.

Pyrgos, vdW, Dean and JJ are decent pros, but not my idea of a Heineken Cup business end backline


By that rationale my old geography teacher's a good coach because in 2nd year the backs had some awesome first phase moves!

Being able to come up with set piece moves is a minimum requirement for competence as an attack coach, well coached players are capable of multi phased fast paced attacks which we do not do well.

Good set plays are not evidence that hodge is a good coach but the fact that we run out of ideas afterb4 or 5 phasess you point out, is evidence that hodge is a poor coach.

For the record, my old geography teacher was a MariusJonker!
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Tichtheid on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:02 pm

Do any of you guys think our 9 to 13 who have played the majority of the season are top level players who will take Edinburgh to regular semi finals and beyond in the league and big cup competitions? *
Guys who will challenge for selection for the world cup or the next 6N?

I think the likes of vdM, Kinghorn and definitely Darcy Graham can. Hoyland played well I thought and deserves to stay on.
Shiel looks to have potential

Otherwise?

I thought we'd gotten past accepting mediocrity.


*if you do think these are guys who will take us to regular semi finals, you'll have to ask yourself why we have lost five or six league games from winning positions with these guys on the park
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby JDCSR on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:45 pm

I think the constituent parts of the backline namely:

13 - Johnstone
12 - Dean
11 - Hoyland

10 - VDW
9 - Pyrgos

Are a good standard as second choices with VDW possibly better than that but today, second choice standard wasn't enough. For next season the current 'on paper' first choice looks good:

15 - Kinghorn
14 - Graham
13 - Bennett
12 - Scott
11 - VDM
10 - VDW
9 - Pyrgos

A new 9 would be nice (essential) and the rest looks fine with the big assumption Scott and Bennet can stay fit and return to form. Other than maybe Dean though is anyone really pushing the first choice backline? Socino and Hickey have been big disappointments. Compare to our forwards where we have much less drop off from first to second and even third choice.

The two Fijians will hopefully help but our own versions of McDowell and Nairn would be lovely. Cammy Hutchison could be worth a shot.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby JDCSR on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:57 pm

Tichtheid wrote:I feel, though a bit more depth at lock wouldn’t hurt.


I don't disagree but I think CHH will really benefit from this season's run of games and another off season of conditioning. He's got exactly the sort of hard nosed raw ingredients that I can see Cockers moulding into a top class lock. Hodgson and Atkinson both have potential as well particularly the latter who is a giant but a late starter to rugby. These 3 plus McKenzie and Douglas will give us a great core until Gilchrist and Toolis are back from the world cup. I think in terms of depth at lock this season we've missed Carmichael but hopefully he'll be back with a bang. If he's done a Bradbury and used his injury lay off to bulk up then all the better.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby BruceLee on Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:10 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Hoyland was class and VdM looked hungry. What game were you watching?

Same as you i guess...most of the time in the backs the back 3 score the most tries. Darcy for me was the standout, VDM and Hoyland didnt set the heather alight, based on the amount of possession and territory we had in that match,but tbh if your no9 cant put pace on the ball at the proper times in the match anyone including the centres will struggle to gain any momentum and break down well organised defences.I might be out of order on blaming the finishers on the limited ability of our scrumhalf.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Tichtheid on Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:23 pm

JDCSR wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:I feel, though a bit more depth at lock wouldn’t hurt.


I don't disagree but I think CHH will really benefit from this season's run of games and another off season of conditioning. He's got exactly the sort of hard nosed raw ingredients that I can see Cockers moulding into a top class lock. Hodgson and Atkinson both have potential as well particularly the latter who is a giant but a late starter to rugby. These 3 plus McKenzie and Douglas will give us a great core until Gilchrist and Toolis are back from the world cup. I think in terms of depth at lock this season we've missed Carmichael but hopefully he'll be back with a bang. If he's done a Bradbury and used his injury lay off to bulk up then all the better.



Those are all fair points, well made, and I agree with your previous post about our halfbacks/midfield - they are good back up level players who we'd hope to be slotting in one at a time when needs be.

I really don't like knocking players online, it's not my thing and I don't think I've done it before, but a bit of a reality check is needed.
We need backs who are at the same level as our pack, and the pack replacements - Jamie Ritchie was Scotland's best player in the 6N (imo) and he can't nail down a starting jersey in the Edinburgh team. Our first choice loosehead is keeping the Scotland starter out of the jersey - that is what we need in the backs
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby macdone on Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:13 am

It's a shame but we have got zero out of Scott, Socino, Bennett, and Hickey. Glasgow have signed Hastings and McDowall - and that's what we should be doing. We need a different approach in terms of signings and we need a different voice as attack coach.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:17 am

BruceLee wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Hoyland was class and VdM looked hungry. What game were you watching?

Same as you i guess...most of the time in the backs the back 3 score the most tries. Darcy for me was the standout, VDM and Hoyland didnt set the heather alight, based on the amount of possession and territory we had in that match,but tbh if your no9 cant put pace on the ball at the proper times in the match anyone including the centres will struggle to gain any momentum and break down well organised defences.I might be out of order on blaming the finishers on the limited ability of our scrumhalf.


There was nothing for any of them to finish! Apart from Hoyland and that ridiculous, ridiculous double miss pass from the scrum.

Hoyland was our main crash ball option and VdM looked for work more than usual. I think they both played well.

I also don't think Pyrgos is told to get much on the ball. Forwards round the corner is our attack.
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Re: Heineken Cup QF v Munster

Postby bignose on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:27 am

Tichtheid wrote:Do any of you guys think our 9 to 13 who have played the majority of the season are top level players who will take Edinburgh to regular semi finals and beyond in the league and big cup competitions? *
Guys who will challenge for selection for the world cup or the next 6N?


Yes, absolutely, particularly Dean who I think has been very unlucky this season. Pyrgos is not consistent enough, I will concede that, nor is he good enough at spotting when to slow down and when to go quick.

Tichtheid wrote:*if you do think these are guys who will take us to regular semi finals, you'll have to ask yourself why we have lost five or six league games from winning positions with these guys on the park


Lack of mental strength, defensive system breakdown, conditioning suited to heavy impact and a slower game meaning players are not able to cope when presented with a faster game. Not closing out games when in winning positions is not really an attack thing though, is it. And I don't think that you can lay all the blame for losing those games on the backs.

To paraphrase your question...

Do you think our attack coach who has been in charge for all of the season (and several - I lose count - prior to that) is a top level coach who will take Edinburgh to regular semi finals and beyond in the league and big cup competitions? An attack coach who will help guys with real potential to challenge for selection for the world cup or the next 6N?
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