Whither now?

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Re: Whither now?

Postby BigD163 on Thu May 02, 2019 9:37 am

Wottie wrote:
The Chiel wrote:Absolutely cast that Edinburgh will be in the same diddy cup group as Leicester.
At least there will be TV coverage . . .


Mmmm! Do you get into the Diddy Cup from 2nd bottom of the Premiership?


Yes and promotion from the English Championship IIRC.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby EWT spoons on Fri May 03, 2019 9:18 am

Whilst I am disappointed with how the season has gone, some of the chat about Cockers being in trouble and the like, is insane. He had a great first season getting us into the playoffs and qualifying for the big cup, then in his second season we got to the quarter finals of the big cup. Sure our group turned out to be not quite as tough as was expected, but it’s still a good achievement. Our league position is disappointing, but we have to bear in mind this was only cockers second season.

He’s said repeatedly the work to turn Edinburgh around isn’t a 1,2 or 3 year plan, it’s probably going to be a lot longer, and taking into consideration how utterly inept we have been in the years before he took over, it’s hard to argue with that.

On the recruitment point mentioned previously, about why Glasgow have signed some better players than us. To me it’s fairly straightforward, Glasgow have won the ProXX, have been in contention to win it pretty much every year since, and play in the big cup. Up until this season we were out the big cup, and we’ve not really shown any hope of getting to, or doing anything in the playoffs. If you are a player looking to win stuff and improve yourself, which of the two clubs would appeal more. Clubs & players still see us as also-rans/plucky outsiders, and until we start winning more games and showing we deserve to be at the top table consistently then the level of player interested in coming to us is going to be lower than the ones who want to move to Glasgow.

With all this said, I think we need to see some tweaks to our style of play next season as teams have figured us out. They’ll know if they just flood the middle of the park and front up, we’re goosed, so with any luck some of the lads we’re bringing in for next season will help with this, but we will need to change our style of play as well. Look at Duhan, start of the season through to about the 6 nations, he was very good, getting the ball outwide and scoring tries. Since then though we’ve got narrower and narrower and now he can go through an entire game without touching the ball (literally happened a few weeks ago). So it’s all well and good having some exciting ball carriers in the team, but if they don’t see the ball then it’s pointless. I hope Cockers and Hodge factor this in and adapt the gameplan accordingly, otherwise we'll be in for a long season of grinding out a few results here and there but ultimately not achieving much.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby KenMavor on Fri May 03, 2019 1:47 pm

I think Edinburgh's season mirrors Glasgow last season.

Rails came off towards the end of a promising start and middle. Cocker's realized that he could not play the expansive game he wanted to, for various reasons, and then went back to his go to play - the forwards.

Those guys are just knackered after a hard season - Scotland games and Edinburgh games. Players get jaded and knackered.

Glasgow learnt the hard way last season and they have adapted. The up and coming Glasgow players (Tom Gordon anyone) are taking their chance with both hands. Edinburgh need to get that depth across the team so that key players are raring to go towards the end of a season and not getting flogged to death.

I think you need a good 10 and a NSQ one if possible. You need some up and coming youngsters to fill gaps when needs...only the gaps and not the whole team...so that they learn from the masters.

Re Cockers...how long was he at Leicester ? 10 years...suspect he's at Edinburgh for the long run. He is a very good rugby coach..he know the game inside out, he knows when to twist or stick, he does not offer bullsh*t, he calls it as he sees it.

SRU, Edinburgh and their fans are very lucky to have him....they need to hold onto him for as long as possible to allow him time, money and commitment to build Edinburgh into the team he wants them to be.

This was a good season for Edinburgh - not great but good. The rails come off a bit but think everyone recognizes what the problems were and they are fixable.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby joe soap on Fri May 03, 2019 5:14 pm

EWT spoons wrote:Whilst I am disappointed with how the season has gone, some of the chat about Cockers being in trouble and the like, is insane.


he isn't in trouble next season, but if doesn't deliver more, he should be after it. It will be his team. He has had the extra budget, he didn't have to sell his kid's kidney.

the narrative on here is so familiar; excuses. This time for Cockerill.

Here's another narrative. The all international pack (betetr than Scotland's apparently) got nowhere against Cockerill's "little brothers"; clever jibes amuse but do not deliver results - nor should they be allowed to distract. Folk now bemoan not that Edinburgh have 2 great packs but that the 2nd string aren't good enough. Cockerill as a coach inherited a dynasty at Leicester, and under his watch it was run into the ground. The conveyor belt stopped producing, the big buys failed to fire - and there were plenty of them. And Leicester are still feeling the draft - because yes, it takes more than a couple of season to rebuild from disaster. He couldn't adapt there, and worryingly he shows here not signs of adapting but signs of regressing. And in so doing ran his pack into the ground, hence the damp squib finish

He has a season to show he can adapt. Lets hope he can, but lets not be blinded by reputation and patter, its results that count
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Fri May 03, 2019 6:31 pm

joe soap wrote:
EWT spoons wrote:Whilst I am disappointed with how the season has gone, some of the chat about Cockers being in trouble and the like, is insane.


he isn't in trouble next season, but if doesn't deliver more, he should be after it. It will be his team. He has had the extra budget, he didn't have to sell his kid's kidney.

the narrative on here is so familiar; excuses. This time for Cockerill.

Here's another narrative. The all international pack (betetr than Scotland's apparently) got nowhere against Cockerill's "little brothers"; clever jibes amuse but do not deliver results - nor should they be allowed to distract. Folk now bemoan not that Edinburgh have 2 great packs but that the 2nd string aren't good enough. Cockerill as a coach inherited a dynasty at Leicester, and under his watch it was run into the ground. The conveyor belt stopped producing, the big buys failed to fire - and there were plenty of them. And Leicester are still feeling the draft - because yes, it takes more than a couple of season to rebuild from disaster. He couldn't adapt there, and worryingly he shows here not signs of adapting but signs of regressing. And in so doing ran his pack into the ground, hence the damp squib finish

He has a season to show he can adapt. Lets hope he can, but lets not be blinded by reputation and patter, its results that count


We did beat the "little brothers" twice before coming unstuck.

Cockers and Tigers failings don't seem to be as much coaching as a refusal to realise Leicester didn't have a divine right to get the best players and be the best club in England. They've got much worse since he's gone. The whole club is a mess.

Cockers will do better next year. This season we did get to a European knockout. Wasn't all that bad. You do need depth to compete in this competition - Glasgow, Munster and Leinster are the best in this league and also the best squads. It'll take a year or two more than I thought though.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby joe soap on Fri May 03, 2019 7:36 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:ockers and Tigers failings don't seem to be as much coaching as a refusal to realise Leicester didn't have a divine right to get the best players and be the best club in England. They've got much worse since he's gone. The whole club is a mess.

Cockers will do better next year. This season we did get to a European knockout. Wasn't all that bad. You do need depth to compete in this competition - Glasgow, Munster and Leinster are the best in this league and also the best squads. It'll take a year or two more than I thought though.



Cockers was DoR throughout that period of "divine right" if that's what it was. Actually I think it was a lack of attention to academy, a lack of ability to move with the times, a fixation on one way, and a failure to adapt when he finally did recognise that (by bringing in Mauger and being unable to work with him or new systems). The buck stopped there.
12 years a coach there, 7 or 8 as head coach/DoR. He oversaw gradual decline, was unable to deal with it. They are in a mess now because that is what he left. Can't have it that it takes 3 years or more to rebuild here but not at Leicester. Also worth remembering what finally got him the push - a very modern team playing open rugby thrashing them at home 40 odd to nil. His "little brothers".

Depth - yes its needed, no question - but as I pointed out folk on here would have had as with 2 packs as good as each other, except the first one is better than Scotland because of a couple of non scots, have had all sorts being touted for the national team - even this week we are going to lose 12 or so forwards to the World Cup. This is all rose tinted specs delusion. Same applies to Cockerill - oh look he's a big name who once coached a winning team. He can earn his spurs again here, reputation counts for nothing on the park, not does it off it. It doesn't win matches.

Edinburgh fans are not demanding enough. Bit like too many players down the years
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Fri May 03, 2019 8:06 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:ockers and Tigers failings don't seem to be as much coaching as a refusal to realise Leicester didn't have a divine right to get the best players and be the best club in England. They've got much worse since he's gone. The whole club is a mess.

Cockers will do better next year. This season we did get to a European knockout. Wasn't all that bad. You do need depth to compete in this competition - Glasgow, Munster and Leinster are the best in this league and also the best squads. It'll take a year or two more than I thought though.



Cockers was DoR throughout that period of "divine right" if that's what it was. Actually I think it was a lack of attention to academy, a lack of ability to move with the times, a fixation on one way, and a failure to adapt when he finally did recognise that (by bringing in Mauger and being unable to work with him or new systems). The buck stopped there.
12 years a coach there, 7 or 8 as head coach/DoR. He oversaw gradual decline, was unable to deal with it. They are in a mess now because that is what he left. Can't have it that it takes 3 years or more to rebuild here but not at Leicester. Also worth remembering what finally got him the push - a very modern team playing open rugby thrashing them at home 40 odd to nil. His "little brothers".

Depth - yes its needed, no question - but as I pointed out folk on here would have had as with 2 packs as good as each other, except the first one is better than Scotland because of a couple of non scots, have had all sorts being touted for the national team - even this week we are going to lose 12 or so forwards to the World Cup. This is all rose tinted specs delusion. Same applies to Cockerill - oh look he's a big name who once coached a winning team. He can earn his spurs again here, reputation counts for nothing on the park, not does it off it. It doesn't win matches.

Edinburgh fans are not demanding enough. Bit like too many players down the years


I agree that he didn't pay attention to the academy but that's just rugby with money. Apart from Exeter they all try and buy success. I don't think his style of rugby was wrong - Sarries win that way but with a better counter attack and Exeter won that way and have now just tried to change it. We profited last year from 10 man rugby and got to the QFs of the Champions Cup with it too. England, Ireland, Wales win with brutal to watch 10 man rugby at the highest level. It is effective, people moan when the team loses because it's boring as pain drying but it's effective.

There will be a fair few Edinburgh lads in Japan for the world cup. The Edinburgh pack is 8 international quality players with Dell, Ford, Berghan, Bradbury and Ritchie in the wings who are also international class. Are they all first choice for Scotland? Probably not but they're up there.

We're all disappointed because we had high expectations but getting to the Champions Cup QFs is an achievement (I don't think teams such as Exeter have ever, Glasgow have twice) and Cockers is a good coach. There's pressure if he does this badly in the league again next year but it's a marathon, not a sprint.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby joe soap on Fri May 03, 2019 8:21 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote: There's pressure if he does this badly in the league again next year but it's a marathon, not a sprint.


that is what I said.

But he is only a good coach here if he delivers, if he doesn't he is a man who once won something.

At Leicester the club were loyal and forgiving for far too long. Edin fans would have had enough of that I would hope. But I'm not at all sure.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby joe soap on Fri May 03, 2019 8:27 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:There will be a fair few Edinburgh lads in Japan for the world cup


yes, there will but it doesn't make them great players But I doubt there will be 12 plus forwards in the extended training squad, never mind in the final 31. .That was the usual over inflated opinion of players in a team which managed to finish above Dragons and Kings. Whoop de doo
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Re: Whither now?

Postby joe soap on Fri May 03, 2019 8:30 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I agree that he didn't pay attention to the academy but that's just rugby with money. Apart from Exeter they all try and buy success. .


I think you might be surprised at how many of the Saracens squad came from its academy or joined as 19/20/21 year old. The do sign big names, and the retain loads, but their academy is one of the best around

And out. We'll see what next season brings
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Re: Whither now?

Postby dolf_lundgren on Sat May 04, 2019 6:58 am

I think there is a bit of revisionism here on Cockers time at a Leicester. While he was head coach they were in the play offs every year. They haven't done that in the 2 years since he left. He wasn't the coach when Glasgow battered them at welford road, he had left the month before, I was there with Leicester season ticket holders and they were all raging that he had been pushed out.

They would argue that it was others who were trying to force hmto play a more open game that caused the problem and they lost what it was to be Leicester which was forward power and players working hard.

Saracensdobring through a lot of young players, but they also hoover up a lot of youngsters who are on the cusp of pro rugby, they have deeper pockets than anyone else so they can afford to do that and almost uniquely in Emglsh rugby over the past few years, they have been able to keep hold of them, also dualregistering with Bedford. Leicester are one of the few "proper clubs" left n that they don't have a sugar daddy, just a passionate support who turn up in numbers.

I agree one good season doesn't make him a good coach, but one bad one doesn't make him a bad one either. There will be pressure next year if we fail to make the big cup again, but if that is the case I them it is more likely down to the players not being as good as we, and they, think they are than his abilities. He has proven it time and again, they have not.

One other thing is that Cockers brings a lot off the pitch too, he is working hard to turn us to form a team into a club, something no one has really tried to do much in the past, that is important. Also if he can stand up for us and get a few extra quid to balance the playing field with Galasgow then do much the better.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby BruceLee on Sat May 04, 2019 9:14 am

joe soap wrote:
EWT spoons wrote:Whilst I am disappointed with how the season has gone, some of the chat about Cockers being in trouble and the like, is insane.


he isn't in trouble next season, but if doesn't deliver more, he should be after it. It will be his team. He has had the extra budget, he didn't have to sell his kid's kidney.

the narrative on here is so familiar; excuses. This time for Cockerill.

Here's another narrative. The all international pack (betetr than Scotland's apparently) got nowhere against Cockerill's "little brothers"; clever jibes amuse but do not deliver results - nor should they be allowed to distract. Folk now bemoan not that Edinburgh have 2 great packs but that the 2nd string aren't good enough. Cockerill as a coach inherited a dynasty at Leicester, and under his watch it was run into the ground. The conveyor belt stopped producing, the big buys failed to fire - and there were plenty of them. And Leicester are still feeling the draft - because yes, it takes more than a couple of season to rebuild from disaster. He couldn't adapt there, and worryingly he shows here not signs of adapting but signs of regressing. And in so doing ran his pack into the ground, hence the damp squib finish

He has a season to show he can adapt. Lets hope he can, but lets not be blinded by reputation and patter, its results that count

Totally agree. I would also add, that a lot of people dont seem to get it that it is a result based business and if they are happy with mediocrity for years to come; they are living in a bubble.Personally i do feel his coat will be on a shakey peg if we dont do considerably better in our conference next season and progress to the latter stages of the Diddy cup.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby BruceLee on Sat May 04, 2019 9:17 am

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:ockers and Tigers failings don't seem to be as much coaching as a refusal to realise Leicester didn't have a divine right to get the best players and be the best club in England. They've got much worse since he's gone. The whole club is a mess.

Cockers will do better next year. This season we did get to a European knockout. Wasn't all that bad. You do need depth to compete in this competition - Glasgow, Munster and Leinster are the best in this league and also the best squads. It'll take a year or two more than I thought though.



Cockers was DoR throughout that period of "divine right" if that's what it was. Actually I think it was a lack of attention to academy, a lack of ability to move with the times, a fixation on one way, and a failure to adapt when he finally did recognise that (by bringing in Mauger and being unable to work with him or new systems). The buck stopped there.
12 years a coach there, 7 or 8 as head coach/DoR. He oversaw gradual decline, was unable to deal with it. They are in a mess now because that is what he left. Can't have it that it takes 3 years or more to rebuild here but not at Leicester. Also worth remembering what finally got him the push - a very modern team playing open rugby thrashing them at home 40 odd to nil. His "little brothers".

Depth - yes its needed, no question - but as I pointed out folk on here would have had as with 2 packs as good as each other, except the first one is better than Scotland because of a couple of non scots, have had all sorts being touted for the national team - even this week we are going to lose 12 or so forwards to the World Cup. This is all rose tinted specs delusion. Same applies to Cockerill - oh look he's a big name who once coached a winning team. He can earn his spurs again here, reputation counts for nothing on the park, not does it off it. It doesn't win matches.

Edinburgh fans are not demanding enough. Bit like too many players down the years

Good post.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby malkster1 on Sat May 04, 2019 10:17 am

A lot of end of season gripes going on but tbt we simply ran out of steam. This was caused in no little part by lack of rotation and the sheer workload imposed on the pack by the tactics. They worked to a certain extent but eventually we were found wanting. We were also capable of occasionally reverting back to being as bad as we were under Alan Solomon's and those moments causing us to lose against weaker teams often from strong positions is what cost us our play off place not just winning 2 from 4 Vs Scarlets, Leinster, Glasgow and Ulster.
People are correct we need to improve next season and become less one dimensional. We have suffered some bad luck with injuries and signing players like Hickey and Socino who have been inexplicably poor but if we do not modify how we play then questions deserve to be answered.
However we have to be a little realistic that if we were to get rid of someone like Cockerill who is building a club and told us fixing the team would be a long term project after 3 years then who would you get. Not many top coaches would be interested and we would effectively have to start again.
Finally if the while point of your rant is Glasgow got Cockerill sacked and he had left a month before you look kind of silly :)
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Pitfitter446 on Sat May 04, 2019 4:32 pm

I’ve read and reread the last few the last few posts and decided I don’t have the answer, if I did I’d be after Cocker’s job, all I know is we needed to be able to change tack mid game if A isn’t-working and to be able to rotate personnel to keep players fit and match ready.
So we’re ready to renew STs, look forward with hope and some expectation, now only time will tell.
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