Whither now?

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Whither now?

Postby royc on Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:56 pm

Season over, with a couple of heavy and dispiriting losses to Ulster and Glasgow to round things off.

We finished 10th out of 14, staying a few points ahead of Cheetahs if at least comfortably ahead of this season's whipping boys, Dragons, Southern Kings and Zebre.

Our attack saw us finish 12th out of 14 for number of tries scored, even lowly Southern Kings scored more.

Forwards looked tired and jaded again yesterday, not surprising really as the same guys start nearly every week, either for Edinburgh or internationals, and are expected to do the bulk of the physical action in our 10-man game; it takes its toll.

Backs outside of 10 again played little part, they seem to be pretty much supernumeraries in the team's script.

Cockers is I think at an important crossroads here. Plan A, the 10-man game, didn't work out too well. There does not appear to be a recognisable plan B. The squad for next season is all but signed up and appears to offer little change, a few replacement back-up players in the pack, two unproven Fijian 7s players and a not obviously auspicious signing at 9.

He may have got the culture, conditioning and fitness improved. How does he now turn things round to make next season a success?



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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:24 pm

Your missing the fairly significant Champions Cup run but the tries statistic is very concerning.

We're in a good place but a lot of work to do building depth and creating a top backline. How much Kinghorn played last year Vs this year is significant as he really made the backline a different proposition.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby bignose on Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:09 pm

royc wrote:Our attack saw us finish 12th out of 14 for number of tries scored, even lowly Southern Kings scored more.


Who is the attack coach again?
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Re: Whither now?

Postby bignose on Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:10 pm

bignose wrote:
royc wrote:Our attack saw us finish 12th out of 14 for number of tries scored, even lowly Southern Kings scored more.


Who is the attack coach again, although I'm sure there are valid reasons why it's not their fault?
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Re: Whither now?

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:36 am

A backs coach can influence what the backsdo with the ball, the head coach decides how much and when. Our bacjsonly got poor ball to play with, certainlyin the last month.

Hodge may not be a world beating coach, but this is not all at his door. We could have had Joe Schmidt coaching the all black back line, but if they only get the ball when the forwards have run aground it's hard going.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:48 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:A backs coach can influence what the backsdo with the ball, the head coach decides how much and when. Our bacjsonly got poor ball to play with, certainlyin the last month.

Hodge may not be a world beating coach, but this is not all at his door. We could have had Joe Schmidt coaching the all black back line, but if they only get the ball when the forwards have run aground it's hard going.


Exactly - whoever is the backs coach next year the gameplan will remain largely the same. In Hodge's defence Kinghorn and Graham have come through with him. Dean has improved and JJ has become a good 13 from the 7s. At times there have been good set moves and at times set moves ruined by a basic error. VdM has also played well but I don't think Hodge had much to do with him being a freak, it's disappointing they don't have him looking for work.

Other than that there just isn't much else to work with - Shiel looks good in his 5 minutes. Hickey and VdW have been serviceable to poor. (Weir was outstanding for Worcester yesterday). Pyrgos has been good to poor. Fife has regressed since last year bizarrely. Whoever decided Matt Scott should be bigger than Allan Dell needs a word and Bennett, sadly, can't stay fit at all. Hoyland looks good when fit, Socino disappointing and Taylor we'll see but doesn't look like a first choice centre. There's a lack of talent for sure.

Next year we're going to ride or die with the pack again but I hope we don't always play box kicks and then a backline that's far, far to deep trying to outflank teams. Not that the backs have shown it but run clever lines and pass flat would be an improvement.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby bignose on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:51 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:A backs coach can influence what the backsdo with the ball, the head coach decides how much and when. Our bacjsonly got poor ball to play with, certainlyin the last month.

Hodge may not be a world beating coach, but this is not all at his door. We could have had Joe Schmidt coaching the all black back line, but if they only get the ball when the forwards have run aground it's hard going.


Hodge is the Attack coach, not the Backs coach, according to the press releases from Edinburgh when Cockerill arrived.

What do we think the "KPIs" should be for either an Attack coach or a Backs coach?
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:52 am

bignose wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:A backs coach can influence what the backsdo with the ball, the head coach decides how much and when. Our bacjsonly got poor ball to play with, certainlyin the last month.

Hodge may not be a world beating coach, but this is not all at his door. We could have had Joe Schmidt coaching the all black back line, but if they only get the ball when the forwards have run aground it's hard going.


Hodge is the Attack coach, not the Backs coach, according to the press releases from Edinburgh when Cockerill arrived.

What do we think the "KPIs" should be for either an Attack coach or a Backs coach?


Hodge isn't the one telling the pack to pick and go every opportunity. That's got Cockers finger prints. Now we can ask why they went from trying to play a game to 10 man rugby.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby bignose on Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:08 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
bignose wrote:
dolf_lundgren wrote:A backs coach can influence what the backsdo with the ball, the head coach decides how much and when. Our bacjsonly got poor ball to play with, certainlyin the last month.

Hodge may not be a world beating coach, but this is not all at his door. We could have had Joe Schmidt coaching the all black back line, but if they only get the ball when the forwards have run aground it's hard going.


Hodge is the Attack coach, not the Backs coach, according to the press releases from Edinburgh when Cockerill arrived.

What do we think the "KPIs" should be for either an Attack coach or a Backs coach?


Hodge isn't the one telling the pack to pick and go every opportunity. That's got Cockers finger prints. Now we can ask why they went from trying to play a game to 10 man rugby.



So there's no way to judge the effectiveness of the attack coach then, because "it's all Cockerill's fault"?
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Re: Whither now?

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:25 am

Don’t think there is anything new in my thinking but a few observations

Agree we have to move on from this 10 man game, in the league in particular, against the French and English in Europe it may be a successful tactic but it is not going to get us where we need to be in the Pro14. We look rigidly stuck to the limited game plan even picking and going off quick ruck ball at times or box kicking when there is an overlap. VDW started the season well playing flat, attacking the line but has got deeper as the season went on. Our strengths are our pack and back 3 (first choice) we need a game plan that makes the best of both of these.

We are regularly dominating territory and possession but not converting this to points, our error rate through skill failure (knock-on etc) feels high, defensively we also seem to leak soft tries or make it easy for the opposition at times. We have to work an awful lot harder for our points than the opposition.

Conferences – The league is pretty competitive Glasgow, Munster and Leinster a bit ahead with Kings, Zebre and Dragons a bit off the pace but the other 8 are all much of a muchness and we need to be looking at being the best of the rest next season. Assuming no major league overhaul the conferences are due a shake up for next season will be interesting to see who we end up with. Ourselves, Scarlets and Cheetahs all accrued significantly less points than last season, Ospreys and Connacht the 2 that really improved.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby BigD163 on Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:51 am

I think last season we won something like 7 or 8 games by 7 points or less and lost 1 game by 7 or less. This season we have won 4 games by less than 8 and lost 5 by 7 or less. We have lost too many close games and that's the shortfall in league points.

The root cause of that is difficult to pin point. We have scored 60ish less and conceded also 60ish more so both attack and defence has under performed. To end the season on negative points difference is poor.

Part of my issue with the way our attack has gone, other than the very forward orientated nature of it, is that there appears to be very little strike or set plays off of phase ball. Against Munster in the QF rather than fall back on moves there were needless and jamesmatthew miss passes thrown.

We have one of the best back 3 units in the league (IMO), the aim of the off season has to be how to get them involved more.

Cockerill isn't blind to issues, it was he who went looking for help at the Tigers. Fair enough it didn't work out but given how they have went since he left I would suggest it wasn't all his fault. He must see there needs to be a change in attacking philosophy.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:59 am

bignose wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
bignose wrote:
Hodge is the Attack coach, not the Backs coach, according to the press releases from Edinburgh when Cockerill arrived.

What do we think the "KPIs" should be for either an Attack coach or a Backs coach?


Hodge isn't the one telling the pack to pick and go every opportunity. That's got Cockers finger prints. Now we can ask why they went from trying to play a game to 10 man rugby.



So there's no way to judge the effectiveness of the attack coach then, because "it's all Cockerill's fault"?


Hodge should go but he's not the man deciding the gameplan. As said the start of the year we did try to play more expansive rugby and then results weren't good so we went limited 10 man which worked better.

I don't think we have the personnel unless Hickey/VdW improve and Dean or Scott put a game together.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby BruceLee on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:32 pm

The majority of the time its bloody frustrating being an Edinburgh fan, league position and points scored only confirm this; it always seems to be one step forward and two steps back, unfortunately i am not holding my breath on us being any better next year or even the year after. There are too many factors stacked against us and tbh in a World cup year this will not work in our favour.At the moment we are light years behind Glasgow and that capitulation on Saturday just reinforces that there is something not right in the Edinburgh camp.We have all had to endure season after season of under achieving, but this season for me has hurt the most in the manner we fell to pieces at critical times and lost matches we really should have won.Really dont want to bang on about individuals and coaches, tbh a few of them should be shown the door pronto.ps and we lose Grant to Ulster that just about sums up the state of affairs. Not a happy Bunny as regards Edinburgh and see no reason to shell out on tickets next year.50 miles along the M8,it sticks in my throat to say it,but we need to aspire to what Glasgow have achieved; a good loud support, a very good team with a decent depth, an appropriate sized stadium and the ability to play a more exciting brand of Rugby that wins games.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:22 pm

I think we lost two home games this year, I don't think the stadium is a factor.
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Re: Whither now?

Postby BruceLee on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:52 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I think we lost two home games this year, I don't think the stadium is a factor.

You have to admit we do need a more compact stadium to generate a better atmosphere; its a no brainer.Yes we do have a good home record, but it was the manner in which we lost those two matches that contributed to our end of season collapse.
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