Agen - 15th Nov 2019

[BigD163]

VDW becomes SQ at some point prior to 2020 Autumn tests if I recall correctly (?) so assuming he stays, which would make sense for all, we will then have an SQ 10 and I think Baggott probably makes way for another NSQ 10.

I think our contract renewal process is going to become increasingly difficult over the next two/three seasons we have a lot of top performers due to renew and I can’t see us affording all of them, unless some of the reported CVC windfall is used but that would not be a sustainable model.

Probably for another thread but does anyone have the OOC list for this season handy? We usually get a couple of renewals at least announced in the run up to Christmas and the 1872?

VdW needs capped to stay SQ and I'm not sure he's really good enough for a Scotland cap. Could be the one who is SQ and then suddenly NSQ again.

Sevens would count. Given there are so few options and not playing him means a 2 year wait then it may be a case of "needs must" even if very cynical.

[joe soap]

VDW playing 7s would be us playing 6s. Prop maybe?

[BigD163]

VDW playing 7s would be us playing 6s. Prop maybe?

Sub that gets on with 30sec to go?

Wouldn't be too upset whether he is capped or not. Think Duhan and Kebble from along the M8 would be more important to the national team.

[robdinsdale]

VdW needs capped to stay SQ and I'm not sure he's really good enough for a Scotland cap. Could be the one who is SQ and then suddenly NSQ again.

There aren't that many pro standard SQ 10s around and all it will take is a concussion and a hamstring tweak before we would be grateful to see him in the matchday squad.It would be foolish not to get him on the bench in one of next year's autumn tests.

You'd think he's behind at least Russell, Hastings, Weir and then perhaps Horne.

I just don't like the idea of cynically capping VdW because we might need him.

I'm not saying he's a better player (assuming current form continues in all cases), but it's not good if Scotland are relying on only 3 players in a specialist position remaining injury-free before we're into makeshift territory.

We're not giving these South African players three year contracts because they have a unique requirement for long-term job stability.

[Tichtheid]

We absolutely should be covering every possible scenario, leaving no stone unturned and all other clichés - it's being professional.

Every other country does it, eg Japan has scouts offering Tongan school kids "scholarships" to go and study in Japan if they look like rugby players, there are thousands of them.

Not capping JvdW next year would show a huge lapse of professional duty imo, if some of the academy kids show up well then fine, but until that happens we don't have the resources to be "holier than thou" on this.

[joe soap]

We absolutely should be covering every possible scenario, leaving no stone unturned and all other clichés - it's being professional.

Every other country does it, eg Japan has scouts offering Tongan school kids "scholarships" to go and study in Japan if they look like rugby players, there are thousands of them.

Not capping JvdW next year would show a huge lapse of professional duty imo, if some of the academy kids show up well then fine, but until that happens we don't have the resources to be "holier than thou" on this.

LawrenceBryce all to do with being holier than thou. He isn't nearly good enough to e.g. deny Weir some time with the national team.
If he improves, fine, but just because we sold out a 3year contract doesn't mean every one will come off. He gets the same treatment as anyone else in my book - if he earns a place, is worth a place, fine, I'll be first to advocate it.

[disco]

You'd think he's behind at least Russell, Hastings, Weir and then perhaps Horne.

I just don't like the idea of cynically capping VdW because we might need him.

In a serious selection, he is surely well behind all of those, unless Weir has been permanently ditched, which would be odd at 28 and VDW is essentially a slightly younger bit taller poorer defender and generally less good version of Weir.
And which 2020 AI would be feature in - Arg, Japan or ABs. No simple games.

He's going to be pretty tight for qualifying for those matches as well. His signing was announced 16th November 2017. It depends exactly when he arrived but I'd guess he won't be qualified by the Argentina match (7th Nov) and the Japan game is touch and go (14th Nov) which leaves the All Blacks...

[Tichtheid]

I genuinely don't think there is too much in it between Weir and vdW.

It seems to be that if we don't capture him next November he would have to wait another two years, is that right?

[The Feral Goat]

I genuinely don't think there is too much in it between Weir and vdW.

It seems to be that if we don't capture him next November he would have to wait another two years, is that right?

I don't think that is the case, if you have 36 months continuous residency in a country before 31 dec 2020 you are qualified. anyone moving to a country after 31 dec 2017 needed 5 years.

I don't believe the status changes if you are not captured by end 2020 but met the 36 month requirement at that time.

Edit: I think this debate started after i mentioned VDW becoming SQ it was more in relation to Baggots status than VDW getting capped. They are same age I think but VDW is obviously a fair bit ahead, if he becomes SQ (irrelevant if he actually gets capped or not) I am not sure baggot keeps getting a pro deal if a better NSQ option or a youngster is available and we have VDW as an SQ 10 on the books.

[Sonicboom]

I appreciate that we didn’t see the best of Weir at Edinburgh but on the basis of their game time at the club VDW is producing a far higher level of rugby than Weir did. He is a very different style from Russell and Hastings but there may well be times where it is useful to have a different style available.
Certainly anyone that can kick as well as he does both from hand and from the tee is worth a look at for international rugby

[The Feral Goat]

Haining gets 2 week ban.

[Crichton Gunner]

2 weeks? Does that signify that he didn't really do anything wrong, but they have to give him something to justify the whole process?

[joe soap]

2 weeks? Does that signify that he didn't really do anything wrong, but they have to give him something to justify the whole process?

4 weeks for striking with the head. Reduced to 2 for being nice and pleading guilty. Pretty fortunate I would say

[joe soap]

I appreciate that we didn’t see the best of Weir at Edinburgh but on the basis of their game time at the club VDW is producing a far higher level of rugby than Weir did. He is a very different style from Russell and Hastings but there may well be times where it is useful to have a different style available.
Certainly anyone that can kick as well as he does both from hand and from the tee is worth a look at for international rugby

Weir is the useful alternative - kicking from hand and foot is what his game and reputation was built on. Top kicker in the Premiership.
And still attacks better then VDW

[disco]

I genuinely don't think there is too much in it between Weir and vdW.

It seems to be that if we don't capture him next November he would have to wait another two years, is that right?

I don't think that is the case, if you have 36 months continuous residency in a country before 31 dec 2020 you are qualified. anyone moving to a country after 31 dec 2017 needed 5 years.

I don't believe the status changes if you are not captured by end 2020 but met the 36 month requirement at that time.

Edit: I think this debate started after i mentioned VDW becoming SQ it was more in relation to Baggots status than VDW getting capped. They are same age I think but VDW is obviously a fair bit ahead, if he becomes SQ (irrelevant if he actually gets capped or not) I am not sure baggot keeps getting a pro deal if a better NSQ option or a youngster is available and we have VDW as an SQ 10 on the books.

The regs are worded around the team selecting players who are either eligible or previously captured. When Scotland are selecting players in November 2020 anyone with 36 months continuous residency will be qualified to play. When Scotland are selecting for the 2021 Six Nations they will be selecting based on the updated Regulation 8 and players with 60 months continuous residency will be qualified to play.