Cockers new deal

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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby BigD163 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:33 am

joe soap wrote:some comments elswhere about players not developing.
Could say that there are always players who don't manage to develop as expected.
There are always players who lose form
And there are always players who had it and no longer do.

Edinburgh seem to have a bit more than their fair share of each. Coindicence?

Interesting folk finally waking up to Cockerill's limitations. His 4th season. His squad. His team. His assistants. His game plan. He owns this.
He moved Edinburgh on well first 2 seasons, but the wake up shake up effect has long worn off, and he has not been able to update his ideas - TBH he isn't interested or capable of change. He is what he is. Time to move on


I think that probably hints to what his speciality should be going forward. Getting in at the ground floor and starting a rebuild.

If he continues too far into the future I worry the next coach will need to do more rebuilding as Rambo, GG and the likes reach the point where they will drop off (GG might be there already).
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby joe soap on Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:07 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
joe soap wrote:some comments elswhere about players not developing.
Could say that there are always players who don't manage to develop as expected.
There are always players who lose form
And there are always players who had it and no longer do.

Edinburgh seem to have a bit more than their fair share of each. Coindicence?


Interesting folk finally waking up to Cockerill's limitations. His 4th season. His squad. His team. His assistants. His game plan. He owns this.
He moved Edinburgh on well first 2 seasons, but the wake up shake up effect has long worn off, and he has not been able to update his ideas - TBH he isn't interested or capable of change. He is what he is. Time to move on


I don't think that's true - Cockers has improved most of the forwards - except McCallum/Bhatti and seen most of the backs - except maybe Bennett, Scott, and VdM - regress. That's the 9 man rugby he plays.

And why any innovative attack coach is bound to fail. Cockers doesn't want innovative attack. He wants early 2000s rugby fundamentals.

He's done fantastically here until post covid and there are circumstances to say yeah it's a very tough situation. I wouldn't be disappointed if he stayed. But, it's maybe time for him to go.


you think Gilchrist, Toolis, Bradbury, Crosbie have improved these last 2 years? You think Pyrgos, Groom of Sheil have? These are all guys with huge potential or had proved their value at top level. None too old, or too young. Add them to the others...........too many for coincidence

You're right about a backs coach, pointless changing anyone unless Cockrill changes or is changed
yes part of it is 9 man rugby, and part is stockpiling positions to play it at the expense of other positions. The back row stock for this season ludicrous. He won't change. He can't change. Been obvious for ages
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:12 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
joe soap wrote:some comments elswhere about players not developing.
Could say that there are always players who don't manage to develop as expected.
There are always players who lose form
And there are always players who had it and no longer do.

Edinburgh seem to have a bit more than their fair share of each. Coindicence?


Interesting folk finally waking up to Cockerill's limitations. His 4th season. His squad. His team. His assistants. His game plan. He owns this.
He moved Edinburgh on well first 2 seasons, but the wake up shake up effect has long worn off, and he has not been able to update his ideas - TBH he isn't interested or capable of change. He is what he is. Time to move on


I don't think that's true - Cockers has improved most of the forwards - except McCallum/Bhatti and seen most of the backs - except maybe Bennett, Scott, and VdM - regress. That's the 9 man rugby he plays.

And why any innovative attack coach is bound to fail. Cockers doesn't want innovative attack. He wants early 2000s rugby fundamentals.

He's done fantastically here until post covid and there are circumstances to say yeah it's a very tough situation. I wouldn't be disappointed if he stayed. But, it's maybe time for him to go.


you think Gilchrist, Toolis, Bradbury, Crosbie have improved these last 2 years? You think Pyrgos, Groom of Sheil have? These are all guys with huge potential or had proved their value at top level. None too old, or too young. Add them to the others...........too many for coincidence

You're right about a backs coach, pointless changing anyone unless Cockrill changes or is changed
yes part of it is 9 man rugby, and part is stockpiling positions to play it at the expense of other positions. The back row stock for this season ludicrous. He won't change. He can't change. Been obvious for ages


Yes I think Tools and Gilchrist certainly have improved. Cockers was right we were always told Gilchrist was good but he didn't show it for years. Then he and Toolis became a really good partnership. I think Crosbie did he's having a bad season from the heights he hit. I don't know about Bradbury I think he's having a few good games. I think he was the great white hope and to be honest a bit overrated because of it. He was great at 6 last year too. But maybe he just was never the big 8 we all wanted?

Pyrgos, Groom I think are at their level. Shiel's development is a clear problem and needs more gametime but equally he's also not an obvious star player. Was never an age grade standout didn't even start for the 20s it was Simmers at Heriot's. He's not some slam dunk prospect he's a high potential player who has always been inconsistent and makes some poor decisions. And can't play in the system where he is primary decision maker I don't think.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby joe soap on Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:55 pm

I don't think Gilco or Toolis are any better bthan 2 years ago. And we can make excuses for every individual. The point is so many individuals. Are they all poor is there a common factor? We know there is. Game plan boxes every on in. Cockerill owns that
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby The Feral Goat on Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:06 pm

I don't think we will see Cockerill leave but the other part of him going is who would potentially replace him who do folk thinks takes us forward?

Mike Blair? John Dalziel? Maybe see what Calum Macrae can do as a head coach or do we look out with Scotland again?
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:55 pm

joe soap wrote:I don't think Gilco or Toolis are any better bthan 2 years ago. And we can make excuses for every individual. The point is so many individuals. Are they all poor is there a common factor? We know there is. Game plan boxes every on in. Cockerill owns that


Cockers was coach two years ago. Gilchrist and Toolis are definitely better than 2017 when he joined.

I agree wholeheartedly the back line are not improving core skills and it badly needs addressed now before we waste Shiel, Chamberlain, Savala, Currie, Paterson and the young guys coming through.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby Pitfitter446 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:09 pm

We need Individual coaches who will argue their case back at Cockers, he’s not a “jack of all trades” coach, he is in reality equivalent to the a football club manager? We need specialists to oversee the backs/forwards and the top man to bring the game together, doesn’t seem like it’s happening.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby Trophyhunter on Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:01 pm

Looks like a credible development. Danny Wilson lives in East Lothian , might suit him to move to Edinburgh in the event of Cockers move .. Watching Ireland on Sunday we saw very little by way of creative attack despite having Leinster’s core backline . Scots defence was good but Farrell template and shape perhaps constrained them . I think this is part of Edinburgh’s problem who play with almost glacial ball speed from set and breakdown. Really limits the lines for an attacking back but controls possession. Still feel that the tedium of Lockdown protocols and playing to empty stadiums week in week out has an effect on individual’s mentality and game psyche so parking judgement for now.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:57 am

There is no way Danny Wilson will be moving to Edinburgh, he is ajust starting to win over the support at Glasgow and there woudl be a riot o he was poached for us.

The model very much seems to be young coaches going into the Scotland setup then back out to a pro team as head coach. Whether that stands in the run up to RWC im not sure. I wouldn't be unhappy with Dalziel or Blair or even a team of the 2.

Having said that dont think Cockers will leave, he has said he wants to be here for a decent length of time. I also think he still has credit in the bank for what he has done. With Lang and Vellacott coming in there does seem a move to more expansive play. The problems we have had with lack of creativity in the backs have been around for a long time. We do have an issue of relying on individuals to make things happen and that needs to change.

In terms of things going wrong, things were pretty much on track up until the Covid shutdown and they have gone wrong since then. This season has been a mess for a lot of teams.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:50 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:There is no way Danny Wilson will be moving to Edinburgh, he is ajust starting to win over the support at Glasgow and there woudl be a riot o he was poached for us.

The model very much seems to be young coaches going into the Scotland setup then back out to a pro team as head coach. Whether that stands in the run up to RWC im not sure. I wouldn't be unhappy with Dalziel or Blair or even a team of the 2.

Having said that dont think Cockers will leave, he has said he wants to be here for a decent length of time. I also think he still has credit in the bank for what he has done. With Lang and Vellacott coming in there does seem a move to more expansive play. The problems we have had with lack of creativity in the backs have been around for a long time. We do have an issue of relying on individuals to make things happen and that needs to change.

In terms of things going wrong, things were pretty much on track up until the Covid shutdown and they have gone wrong since then. This season has been a mess for a lot of teams.


There is no chance Cockers had anything to do with signing Vellacott because of an expansion of gameplanning. This is the classic SRU underwriting an SQ players career when he can't sniff a contract elsewhere. And moving him to Glasgow would make no sense as they have 3 Scotland squad 9s anyway. This isn't Vellacott of England call ups this is Vellacott fourth pick at Wasps. It's the same if Steele didn't re-sign with Quins he'd be up here.

I might hazard a guess the same with Lang, lost his EQP credits and Quins signed a blockbuster Saffer at 12. But I think a really solid 12 who is a better playmaker than anyone we have could be a great signing. If the gameplan changes. If we want crash ball we have that to a minor extent. Don't really see why if Shiel can't excel here by Vellacott can.

We don't need a change of tempo 9 as we have one who can't get off the bench. We need a 9 whose an amazing box kicker and controls the game so plan A, B, C, D works well.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby Trophyhunter on Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:01 pm

Tend to agree on Cookers being around for at least another season . Had chance coffee just over a year back with a couple of recent ex Edinburgh pros who identified conservative game plan and defence coaching priorities as being the driver of attack plays believing that even with the pedigree of Bennett snd Scott it was too contained . Interestingly they had a very high opinion of Dean prior to his long injury lay off last season . ( He was still out at that time of the coffee ), so let’s hope he can return to that lebel of potential. Taylor too has to show more sharpness and authority in his play .
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby BigD163 on Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:35 am

Have Clermont chosen their new coach yet?
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby joe soap on Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:04 am

BigD163 wrote:Have Clermont chosen their new coach yet?


don't think so. Think the short list has been reduced from 4 to 3 though
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby BigD163 on Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:30 pm

joe soap wrote:
BigD163 wrote:Have Clermont chosen their new coach yet?


don't think so. Think the short list has been reduced from 4 to 3 though


Do we know if RC is still on it? I can only find reference to the 4 man shortlist.
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Re: Cockers new deal

Postby joe soap on Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:57 pm

BigD163 wrote:
joe soap wrote:
BigD163 wrote:Have Clermont chosen their new coach yet?


don't think so. Think the short list has been reduced from 4 to 3 though


Do we know if RC is still on it? I can only find reference to the 4 man shortlist.


I should have put a rolling eyes smiley or something with my last post
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