Ulster Semi

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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby bignose on Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:45 pm

Tichtheid wrote:There has been some serious academic research into the phenomenon of “homer refs” in sport, for which you don’t have to be playing at home of course.

The overwhelming statistical evidence found that it is indeed “a thing”.


But only because the statistics are massively skewed by Egon Seconds (apparently)...

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/commun ... efs.18813/

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-asto ... y-picture/

Less of an issue in the Pro14 where the problem is more with knowledge and consistent application of the laws rather than bias in my opinion
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Tichtheid on Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:54 pm

As far as I recall, the reports I read were from sports other than rugby, it was a couple of years ago now, but the point was that the sport didn’t really matter, it seemed to be a human trait.

There have been times I’ve cringed when I’ve seen how, for example, Benetton have been refereed at Murrayfield, there were a few iffy ones against Quins too.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Rico on Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:57 pm

To be honest, I find all this discussion about whether refs are, or are not, biased to be a bit of a sideshow/distraction from the real issues here.

Ulster could (and maybe should) have had at least one man sin-binned or red carded for neck rolls but we were so poor and devoid of leadership and ideas (not to mention fitness) in the last quarter of that game that we might well have still lost against 14 men.

We really need to be looking at ourselves rather than trying to deflect blame onto refs. The cold hard facts are that under Cockers we have a 66% overall win rate, but a 0% knock-out game win rate. No doubt there were sh!t decisions in all of the knock-out games we lost but that’s beside the point - the best teams win in spite of the sh!t reffing decisions.

We need to be asking ourselves why it is that we keep losing in these knock-out games. The answer seems to be that despite all the noise (and Gilchrist seems to be the worst offender for spouting jamesmatthew in newspaper articles about how much has changed and how much we want to put things right etc. etc.) we still lack the mental toughness and belief that we can win when it matters. That’s what we need to focus on. Complaining about refs might make us feel better, but it doesn’t actually fix the underlying problems and malaise at Edinburgh Rugby.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Tichtheid on Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:13 pm

To be clear, I am in no way suggesting the ref turned the game, it’s a side issue but it’s still an issue.

I’ve always said you should take the ref out of the equation by the way you play, I was mistaken, I thought we were 12 points up with half an hour to go, but the collapse was worse than that, it was on 58 minutes.

Munster or Leinster are not losing from that position
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby dolf_lundgren on Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:59 am

Interestingly the ref for the other semi was Andrew Brace, although born in Wales he is a former employee of Munster rugby. So the lack of balance is across the board. It really shouldn’t be that hard to get neutral refs for these games. I understand during regular season games there are logistics issues, but they should be sorting this out for the play off at least.

I wasn’t conscious of the tmo having any input throughout the game? Which is a bit odd, also highlights the benefit of having “teams” of officials who know and trust each other.

Agree it should have been irrelevant, but the pro 14 just need to be better at this.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:11 am

Neck rolls aside I thought the decisions generally went with momentum we got a few 50/50 first half, reverse when Ulster were on top in the second half.

Questions around onfield leadership (would pyrgos or barclay have made a difference) cockers selection of toolis and Ritchie who had not played a match in months perhaps comprised others for full 80, lack of tactical change when ulster had done so at HT we didn't appear to react and then the individual on field poor decisions that appear to multiply in the big games.

The mental hurdle appears to be the biggest issue. Get a bit fed up of all the we will learn and come back stronger pish as well as there is little evidence of this from previous knock out losses.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:17 am

dolf_lundgren wrote:Interestingly the ref for the other semi was Andrew Brace, although born in Wales he is a former employee of Munster rugby. So the lack of balance is across the board. It really shouldn’t be that hard to get neutral refs for these games. I understand during regular season games there are logistics issues, but they should be sorting this out for the play off at least.

I wasn’t conscious of the tmo having any input throughout the game? Which is a bit odd, also highlights the benefit of having “teams” of officials who know and trust each other.

Agree it should have been irrelevant, but the pro 14 just need to be better at this.


That isn't odd at all. This season the focus has been on the TMO not speaking unless spoken to. Games were being ruined by overzealous TMOs.

Obviously if the referee misses something super obvious they can pipe up. But no more "TMO check check".
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:18 am

The Feral Goat wrote:Neck rolls aside I thought the decisions generally went with momentum we got a few 50/50 first half, reverse when Ulster were on top in the second half.

Questions around onfield leadership (would pyrgos or barclay have made a difference) cockers selection of toolis and Ritchie who had not played a match in months perhaps comprised others for full 80, lack of tactical change when ulster had done so at HT we didn't appear to react and then the individual on field poor decisions that appear to multiply in the big games.

The mental hurdle appears to be the biggest issue. Get a bit fed up of all the we will learn and come back stronger pish as well as there is little evidence of this from previous knock out losses.


Agree leadership was a real problem. Who are the leaders? Dean, McInally, Groom, and Gilchrist. I think Bradbury and Ritchie should be there or there abouts too. Nobody seemed to be able to stop the panic and rally the troops.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby joe soap on Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:08 am

Rico wrote:To be honest, I find all this discussion about whether refs are, or are not, biased to be a bit of a sideshow/distraction from the real issues here.


you're right. So right.

But going back to Sammy's points - now that he has explained them a bit better - I would say he has a point, as does tightheid.

But its worth separating this into 2 streams.

One is was the ref SteveWalsh? The other is was the ref neutral?

We usually think refs are SteveWalsh against our team unless we in by a barrowload (when we forget the SteveWalsh); and we usually don't see the stuff he lets our team away with. All sport is like this. In the moment, or with the benefit of replays from the armchair. Supporters are biased. Fact.

On neutrality, if its not a factor, why do all sports at the highest levels always strive for neutral officials? An awful lot of folk think it matters. Because it does. And as Tichtheid points out, its backed up by numbers. Its not like reffing down the park, or lower level leagues. The pressures on outcomes and careers for refs are immense. The primary thing is that the ref should be seen to be neutral, and not put in the position where there can be doubt. Its not just nationality or trivial detail (only about this!) about whether Murphy is from N or S of the Irish border. He is on the same payroll as Irish players. Its not a good look. Pro14 continually makes itself look LawrenceBryce amateur in its approach to appointing officials, and seemingly do not give a SteveWalsh. That sort of thing is a major problem for this league's reputation and semblance of intergrity
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby TheSmidge on Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:56 am

joe soap wrote:
On neutrality, if its not a factor, why do all sports at the highest levels always strive for neutral officials? An awful lot of folk think it matters. Because it does. And as Tichtheid points out, its backed up by numbers. Its not like reffing down the park, or lower level leagues. The pressures on outcomes and careers for refs are immense. The primary thing is that the ref should be seen to be neutral, and not put in the position where there can be doubt. Its not just nationality or trivial detail (only about this!) about whether Murphy is from N or S of the Irish border. He is on the same payroll as Irish players. Its not a good look. Pro14 continually makes itself look LawrenceBryce amateur in its approach to appointing officials, and seemingly do not give a SteveWalsh. That sort of thing is a major problem for this league's reputation and semblance of intergrity


This.

Neutrality matters.

And, to be honest, the Pro14 phoning Cockers up and asking him if it was ok puts him in a lose-lose position. Say yes, and those unconscious bias factors are in play for both the ref and the teams. Say no, and you can be guaranteed that the story would make its way into the press that Edinburgh chose the ref.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby The Chiel on Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:44 pm

Think it says everything about Greg Garner that he actually recognised there would be a perceived neutrality issue.

And he then just carried on putting all four officials under needless additional pressure, but cleverly phoned Cockers to set him up as his get out of jail free card.

Garner has to go.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby joe soap on Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:17 pm

The Chiel wrote:Think it says everything about Greg Garner that he actually recognised there would be a perceived neutrality issue.

And he then just carried on putting all four officials under needless additional pressure, but cleverly phoned Cockers to set him up as his get out of jail free card.

Garner has to go.


think you might be shooting the wrong person. This has all the makings of cost cutting. If the 2 Assistant refs and TMO are based in Scotland, its saves money. No way would Ulster accept Mike Adams as well :cry: so "balance" is achieved by offering up Murphy.

Cockerill should have said no. Can you imagine the outcry from a certain quarter if Edinburgh had won on the back of a dodgy line call or TMO flagging foul play?
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby disco on Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:06 pm

sammy wrote:Not probably a common or popular view, but I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing a referees performance and decisions any more than a players in a professional game, it should drive up standards, and the Pro14 needs to improve here. It's very different at amateur level obviously as they give up their time for free. I think this is were that attitude comes from, and I won't be beholden to it.

That's fair enough but so much of the 'discussing' (on all rugby forums, not only this one) is just the ref's biased, the ref's SteveWalsh and/or a long list of every decision that went against the poster's team. There's rarely an actual discussion of decisions or an attempt to look at the game as a whole to get an overall picture of the ref's performance.

sammy wrote:I also think it the appointment of a non-neutral ref warrants condemnation - I guess Covid would be the reason, but it doesn't wash with me. This was a show case game and warranted the effort to get one, not so doing undermined the competition, and it's not good enough. Can you imagine the 6N doing similar. Was always going to leave a bad taste when the game comes down to a one penalty difference - given or overlooked (I don't think anyone would argue the last one).

Not Covid related necessarily. John Lacey reffed the semi-final between Glasgow and Ulster last year. I'm just not sure the league has the personnel to deliver 100% neutral referees. Scotland haven't had a Test ref for 20 years but at least are starting to provide more options. Italy have really only provided Mitrea. South Africa have been limited by providing more refs to Super Rugby. Other than Whitehouse, Wales have even been slow to bring refs through, although like Scotland they now seem to be bringing on a couple more in Jones and Evans.

The league are also at a crossroads with the likes of Wilkinson, Lacey and Davies retiring last season and trying to move on from reliance on Owens, Clancy and Mitrea. That means upskilling the best up-and-coming refs they have available and getting them into these big knockout matches when they've earned the opportunity.

sammy wrote:I'm not saying the ref consciously took sides and saying he a did would be wrong as I do think you have to trust their integrity, but unconscious bias is a real thing, companies train people to mitigate it. I also recognise that every comment by either side supporters suffers from this too, it's a natural response to be one eyed.

I think comparing ref's approach to the game to supporters is a false equivalence. This apparent 'unconscious bias' of the ref would need to survive all his decisions being made in the full glare of the TV cameras; reviews by his match assessor; further reviews and discussions with all of his peers; as well as oversight by his line manager. You're talking about a bias that would need to survive some very conscious assessments. (Incidentally all of which would properly discuss in detail any contentious decisions, everything that was happening at the time and take into account the laws and any relevant guidance and applications as well as considering how things looked from the ref's perspective as well as the multi-angle TV view.)

sammy wrote:Having said all that the consensus on this board that I've seen, and which I agree with, was that Edinburgh 'shat the bed' as one poster neatly summarised. It's sport and someone has to lose, but it was a hard one to take and to discuss in the aftermath is not wrong. There is always another game though, and after rubbing our wounds we need to pick ourselves, be proud we put ourselves in a position to lose, and be better then next time around.

We tend to focus on individual incidents (the one that stuck out for me was Bennett's break at 12-0 - if he lofts the ball over Burns I think Edinburgh go 19-0 up but unfortunately Mark is not a great passer) but the game is built on the entire 80 minute performance and Ulster just got more right than Edinburgh, particularly in the second half after some pretty dreadful work when attacking in the 22 had stuffed them in the first half.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby disco on Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:13 pm

Tichtheid wrote:There has been some serious academic research into the phenomenon of “homer refs” in sport, for which you don’t have to be playing at home of course.

The overwhelming statistical evidence found that it is indeed “a thing”.

There's plenty of research into the impact of home advantage on refereeing decisions but not a lot on same country referees as far as I can see. There's one paper from 2010 but the sample is incredibly small (1 French team playing Super League; 1 season of Super Rugby) and, I'd suggest, massively out-of-date. Limited relevance to the PRO14 as well as I don't see vast differences in styles of refereeing and interpretation, certainly among the Irish, Scottish and Welsh refs.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:36 am

disco wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:There has been some serious academic research into the phenomenon of “homer refs” in sport, for which you don’t have to be playing at home of course.

The overwhelming statistical evidence found that it is indeed “a thing”.

There's plenty of research into the impact of home advantage on refereeing decisions but not a lot on same country referees as far as I can see. There's one paper from 2010 but the sample is incredibly small (1 French team playing Super League; 1 season of Super Rugby) and, I'd suggest, massively out-of-date. Limited relevance to the PRO14 as well as I don't see vast differences in styles of refereeing and interpretation, certainly among the Irish, Scottish and Welsh refs.


It's quite an unusual situation to have cross border domestic sports leagues so the research someone can do into it is very limited. An academic study into the Pro14 is probably the most likely to reveal anything about it.

The reality is Murphy missed neckrolls on Graham but refereed a good game overall. No referee is getting every decision right. Players should roll out of rucks and take their own chances.
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