Ulster Semi

RaboDirect Pro12 & Heineken Match Discussion, Referee Retribution, and Player Powwow

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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Frenchy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:09 pm

Have watched that Graham tackle/turnover a dozen times now.

Turnovers like that should be worth points. Say, 4?
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:16 pm

A thing of beauty, should have blown for the end of the game there and then ;)
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby joe soap on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:52 pm

The Chiel wrote:
monkey wrote:Lot of complaining about the ref on here


I think it's pretty mild compared to what would have happened on some forums. The truly moronic selection of an Irish ref, 2 Scottish TJs and a Scottish panel TMO born and bred in Belfast, only serves to show that Greg Garner is not fit for purpose, regardless of Cockers nod to him about it. Additional pressure on officials that was totally unnecessary.

The TJs were anonymous. I actually can't remember many offside penalties ( but stand to be corrected ) and I don't think that was just due to supremely well drilled defences. And I'm pretty sure someone ( Paterson ? ) told Murphy to upgrade his last minute call from knock on to penalty. Most forums would have gone ballistic, even though it was the right call.

Murphy got most things right, and although inconsistent at the ruck, I haven't seen a ref since resumption who hasn't been. He did miss some neck rolls, but no one helped him out. But as posters have mainly said, this was to a very large degree self inflicted. Murphy was the one reffing when Embra were going 12 points up.

I really thought first half Edinburgh had got it right. Loads of involvement from DVDM ( at last ) and some pretty solid defence. To then miss opportunities and to drop off so badly in the last 20 minutes was really poor, and so disappointing. The point about leadership is well made.

However only fair that the last word goes to Ulster, who recovered and fought back brilliantly regardless of any Embra issues. And to Madigan. Not one but two wonderful pressure kicks. As said elsewhere, baws of steel.


top post, well played
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby joe soap on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:57 pm

sammy wrote:
I also think it the appointment of a non-neutral ref warrants condemnation - I guess Covid would be the reason, but it doesn't wash with me. This was a show case game and warranted the effort to get one, not so doing undermined the competition, and it's not good enough. Can you imagine the 6N doing similar. Was always going to leave a bad taste when the game comes down to a one penalty difference - given or overlooked (I don't think anyone would argue the last one).

I'm not saying the ref consciously took sides and saying he a did would be wrong as I do think you have to trust their integrity, but unconscious bias is a real thing, companies train people to mitigate it. I also recognise that every comment by either side supporters suffers from this too, it's a natural response to be one eyed.



take the appointment up with Cockerill, he approved it when he could have said "it would be a better look if it was a neutral set of officials"

And not all refs have a natural response to be one eyed about their "native" team. Scottish refs have long been notoriously the exception for example, usually bending so far over backwards to be seen to be neutral that they actively seem to have a downer on the Scottish team. Could be one reason they don't get far of course :eek:

Murphy missed stuff both ways, he wasn't even going to give a pen for Willemse's offence, when it was clearly one.

He missed couple of neck rolls/half neck rolls but TBH that isn't where the game was won and lost. Not even close
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby monkey on Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:21 pm

sammy wrote:
monkey wrote:Lot of complaining about the ref on here


Not probably a common or popular view, but I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing a referees performance and decisions any more than a players in a professional game, it should drive up standards, and the Pro14 needs to improve here. It's very different at amateur level obviously as they give up their time for free. I think this is were that attitude comes from, and I won't be beholden to it.

I also think it the appointment of a non-neutral ref warrants condemnation - I guess Covid would be the reason, but it doesn't wash with me. This was a show case game and warranted the effort to get one, not so doing undermined the competition, and it's not good enough. Can you imagine the 6N doing similar. Was always going to leave a bad taste when the game comes down to a one penalty difference - given or overlooked (I don't think anyone would argue the last one).

I'm not saying the ref consciously took sides and saying he a did would be wrong as I do think you have to trust their integrity, but unconscious bias is a real thing, companies train people to mitigate it.


I totally agree.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:53 pm

Double post
Last edited by sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:57 pm

joe soap wrote:
sammy wrote:
I also think it the appointment of a non-neutral ref warrants condemnation - I guess Covid would be the reason, but it doesn't wash with me. This was a show case game and warranted the effort to get one, not so doing undermined the competition, and it's not good enough. Can you imagine the 6N doing similar. Was always going to leave a bad taste when the game comes down to a one penalty difference - given or overlooked (I don't think anyone would argue the last one).

I'm not saying the ref consciously took sides and saying he a did would be wrong as I do think you have to trust their integrity, but unconscious bias is a real thing, companies train people to mitigate it. I also recognise that every comment by either side supporters suffers from this too, it's a natural response to be one eyed.



take the appointment up with Cockerill, he approved it when he could have said "it would be a better look if it was a neutral set of officials"

I'm not taking it up with anyone, just expressing an opinion. Cockerill has railed against non-neutral referees in the past, and I don't understand why he was happy this time. Also don't think Cockerill is beyond reproach e.g. it's a 23 man game but too often our bench isn't trusted/ doesn't have the necessary resources

And not all refs have a natural response to be one eyed about their "native" team. Scottish refs have long been notoriously the exception for example, usually bending so far over backwards to be seen to be neutral that they actively seem to have a downer on the Scottish team. Could be one reason they don't get far of course :eek:

So Scottish refs aren't to be trusted, but Irish refs are without question. If everything was reversed and it was a Scottish ref and Edinburgh has won, you think Ulster supporters would be happy. If travel concerns it should have been a home ref, just imagine how that would have gone down across the water.

Murphy missed stuff both ways, he wasn't even going to give a pen for Willemse's offence, when it was clearly one.
I have already said it was the correct decision (led by a Scottish official), and I also have stated he didn't deliberately ref with bias, but it's still a bad appointment.

He missed couple of neck rolls/half neck rolls but TBH that isn't where the game was won and lost. Not even close

Never said it was, quite the opposite actually
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:04 pm

Murphy is from a different country than Ulster fwiw.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:23 pm

For the purposes of rugby Ulster are Irish, and play for the Irish national team.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:31 pm

sammy wrote:For the purposes of rugby Ulster are Irish, and play for the Irish national team.


So the insinuation is as Murphy supports them when they pull on the green jersey he's bias to them in the white jersey? He wants to keep the IFRU onside? Where's this bias coming from?
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:14 pm

I never said he was deliberately biased if you read what I said, or that he necessarily had a bad game, but however much in front at one stage it came down to one point between winning and losing, and penalty judgements of a man from the same union as the eventual winning team. Joe Soap believes Scottish refs over compensate, maybe they do maybe they don't, maybe the TMO found it difficult to flag the neck rolls in case he was perceived as being biased. The point is neutral referees should be in charge to remove all doubt whether concerns are justified or not, especially in showpiece games.

Rugby is not an easy game to ref, but if Pro14 want respect, and the league to be attractive to the wider public, it needs to embrace properly embrace professionalism, and neutral refereeing is part of that. It's not just a game, it's peoples careers, it's fans money, it's seedings for the lucrative Euro championships.

Chiel said much the same thing BTW.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:29 pm

The ARs were both Scottish yesterday also.

It's tying in knots here. Irish refs are unconsciously bias for Irish teams and Scottish refs bend over backwards to be harsh against Scottish teams to show they aren't bias? Why are Scottish refs bias against Scotland but Irish refs are bias for Ireland? Is it because the Pro14 is an Irish cartel? What's the logic there?

Murphy was unconsciously bias for Ulster because he's from a different country but the same union and the ARs and TMO were bias for Ulster to show they aren't bias for Edinburgh? Edinburgh may as well not have turned up!

The officials and where they come from is irrelevant. All are professionals doing their best. Giving bias decisions ruins their careers. What's in it for them? Nothing. If you question the refs are bias narrative it seems to fall apart very quickly.

Edinburgh lost because they bottled it, they didn't take their chances and their players were ill disciplined at the key moment. Not because of unconsciously bias Irish referees and bias Scottish assistants.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby sammy on Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:36 pm

I would like neutral referrers for important games. I really don't understand why that's a contentious point of view and happens in most sports. You clearly don't, your welcome to your opinion.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:23 pm

sammy wrote:I would like neutral referrers for important games. I really don't understand why that's a contentious point of view and happens in most sports. You clearly don't, your welcome to your opinion.


You've yet to explain why Murphy isn't neutral, or why the Scottish ARs aren't neutral. I think that's the contentious point. It's obviously nonsense to suggest Murphy is bias to Ulster because he's Irish but the ARs and TMOs are also bias to Ulster because they're Scottish. To torture logic to that extent makes any point contentious.

Moaning about referees is easily the worst part of sport. I did some refereeing at university to earn extra cash. It's a very low level compared to the pros but you're so focused on the game you don't have a second to consider bias.
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Re: Ulster Semi

Postby Tichtheid on Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:06 pm

There has been some serious academic research into the phenomenon of “homer refs” in sport, for which you don’t have to be playing at home of course.

The overwhelming statistical evidence found that it is indeed “a thing”.
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