Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:16 pm

Trophyhunter wrote:Focus criticism on the way we play which starts with coaching and . game template We used to play Mata one out on pick up where he could find space , our pick snd drive management is inconsistent and our 10’s positioning and dictating of play looks erratic . Coaching can fix much of tgat . Really talented promising players are looking ordinary . Crosbie , Bradbury , Haining , VDW, Bennet .Dean , Hoyland . Refresh on coaching environment required .


The problem with Cockers is that the worse it gets the more he rigidly sticks to the gameplan. There definitely are new ideas needed.

This season is very stop start though so guys like Crosbie play about once a month. If you aren't playing week in week out you've got no chance of getting match sharpness. He's lost his edge from last season.

I think 9 10 and 12 are our biggest problems. I think Dean is a good back up 12. But Pyrgos/Groom and VdW can't get anything going and have absolutely no creativity in them. To be fair to VdW for Scotland he challenged the line a bit and looked a bit better so I'm minded to think he's positioned poorly as it's the system. But he's a very very average 10 make no mistake.

A good evening for James Lang - after last week some questions but yesterday showed how badly we need an upgrade at 12.

Also Grant Gilchrist. Munster got back Coombes from the Ireland squad and he was very good. We got back Gilchrist and he was poor.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby Trophyhunter on Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:27 pm

Not sure Gilchrist is 100% comfortable with Davidson as he is with Toolis ..do hope Davidson is ok as it was stomach churning to see him carried off in that manner . Not sure what your point is on Lang . Dean played ok last night up against D’Allende although still short of his 2019 form ( not alone there !) . Still to see what xtra Lang brings other than 10 back up . Duncan Taylor , Rory Hutchison yes but JL ? Be interested to see how he goes and Happy to be proved wrong . A10 brings the best out in a 12/13 rarely the other way round.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby Trophyhunter on Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:05 pm

Just add really curious as to why you would spotlight the 12 performance as being causal in last night’s defeat ? Having watched it live then phases on recording today don’t see anything that supports your point . If anything some good breakdown work and set up effort plus the short lune that led to the try showed he had a decent game that was just not picked up “live by the commentator . Bennett too had a pretty industrious if unspectacular shift. Blain had an off night with the conditions and Hoyland looked rusty .
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby doedin on Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:44 pm

We looked like a team who needed another half a dozen games to get our match fitness and sharpness back. This season has been a disaster for us and the Weegies with so little game time, losing half a team and more of players off to the Scottish squads and little time to prepare when they come back. We just dont have the funds to have the depth of squads we both need to cope with a season like this. Not making excuses but this season is a bit of a mess and has all been about survival financially.
'
We actually did better than I thought we would last night and agree about Shiel and McCallum. Gilchrist looked unfit and Davidson doesn't really use his size very well> I thought Shoeman was struggling in scrums but then looked again more closely and it was more that the Munster TH was driving across on the angle the whole time. They were targeting Atalifo at TH and he struggled badly, McCallum made a difference when he came on but ref should have spotted it. Playing Pyrgos and VdW together means there is no threat at 9 or 10, all Munster had to do was drift wide and squeeze us of room. Shiel offers a threat even if he cocks it up sometimes.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby BigD163 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:54 am

There will be excuses made, but other clubs are in the same boat. The concern is that there are signs that Cockerill hasn't learned from the end of his tenure at the Tigers. Dull, 1 dimensional in attack and an over reliance on forwards, some of whom are past their sell by date.

The squad, and maybe parts of the coaching staff needs a clear out and few people should be safe.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby BigD163 on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:57 am

Trophyhunter wrote:Not sure Gilchrist is 100% comfortable with Davidson as he is with Toolis


He's been bang average for a while. For a 30 year old, 40 cap ex Scotland captain that sort of excuse doesn't cut it.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby Impega on Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:06 pm

BigD163 wrote:There will be excuses made, but other clubs are in the same boat. The concern is that there are signs that Cockerill hasn't learned from the end of his tenure at the Tigers. Dull, 1 dimensional in attack and an over reliance on forwards, some of whom are past their sell by date.

The squad, and maybe parts of the coaching staff needs a clear out and few people should be safe.


I feel bad slating Duncan Hodge, but he's been the attack coach for years and it's an area that never seems to improve; is that entirely his fault, or does the Head Coach's overarching style restrict him in what he can try to implement?

It feels obvious to shout for an innovative new attack coach with fresh ideas, but perhaps it isn't actually an attractive role due to how Cockerill likes to set the team up...
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby robdinsdale on Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:48 pm

Impega wrote:
BigD163 wrote:There will be excuses made, but other clubs are in the same boat. The concern is that there are signs that Cockerill hasn't learned from the end of his tenure at the Tigers. Dull, 1 dimensional in attack and an over reliance on forwards, some of whom are past their sell by date.

The squad, and maybe parts of the coaching staff needs a clear out and few people should be safe.


I feel bad slating Duncan Hodge, but he's been the attack coach for years and it's an area that never seems to improve; is that entirely his fault, or does the Head Coach's overarching style restrict him in what he can try to implement?

It feels obvious to shout for an innovative new attack coach with fresh ideas, but perhaps it isn't actually an attractive role due to how Cockerill likes to set the team up...


You would think all the kicking from scrum half and the tendency to slow the game down as much as possible come from Cockerill.

We do score nicely worked stuff from first phase ball and we transition well into attack from turnovers. But we are terrible when we have sustained pressure.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:12 pm

robdinsdale wrote:
Impega wrote:
BigD163 wrote:There will be excuses made, but other clubs are in the same boat. The concern is that there are signs that Cockerill hasn't learned from the end of his tenure at the Tigers. Dull, 1 dimensional in attack and an over reliance on forwards, some of whom are past their sell by date.

The squad, and maybe parts of the coaching staff needs a clear out and few people should be safe.


I feel bad slating Duncan Hodge, but he's been the attack coach for years and it's an area that never seems to improve; is that entirely his fault, or does the Head Coach's overarching style restrict him in what he can try to implement?

It feels obvious to shout for an innovative new attack coach with fresh ideas, but perhaps it isn't actually an attractive role due to how Cockerill likes to set the team up...


You would think all the kicking from scrum half and the tendency to slow the game down as much as possible come from Cockerill.

We do score nicely worked stuff from first phase ball and we transition well into attack from turnovers. But we are terrible when we have sustained pressure.


Some nice worked stuff but some is awful. We run set moved far too far behind the gainline so it's easy to defend rather than putting someone through a gap the defence has time to adjust.

Cockers need to change his gameplan first and foremost. Only then will an attack coach add value.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby TheSmidge on Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:53 pm

robdinsdale wrote:
Impega wrote:
BigD163 wrote:There will be excuses made, but other clubs are in the same boat. The concern is that there are signs that Cockerill hasn't learned from the end of his tenure at the Tigers. Dull, 1 dimensional in attack and an over reliance on forwards, some of whom are past their sell by date.

The squad, and maybe parts of the coaching staff needs a clear out and few people should be safe.


I feel bad slating Duncan Hodge, but he's been the attack coach for years and it's an area that never seems to improve; is that entirely his fault, or does the Head Coach's overarching style restrict him in what he can try to implement?

It feels obvious to shout for an innovative new attack coach with fresh ideas, but perhaps it isn't actually an attractive role due to how Cockerill likes to set the team up...


You would think all the kicking from scrum half and the tendency to slow the game down as much as possible come from Cockerill.

We do score nicely worked stuff from first phase ball and we transition well into attack from turnovers. But we are terrible when we have sustained pressure.


That seems to be a Scottish problem, not just Edinburgh. We should have been streets ahead of Wales, but couldn't convert the pressure into points at crucial times. Its been like that for a long time, suggesting its a systemic issue rather than specific to one team or coach.
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby gowrie on Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:48 pm

To be honest I don't think we're any good at using turnovers well. All teams looks better off turnover ball because it's vastly easier to run at a disorganised defence. If we compare how well we do from turnovers to other teams I'd have thought that we're one of the worst in the league at it, I can remember a few times we've taken good ball and thrown two passes 10m back each without doing anything, can't really remember any good tries from turnovers though
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby joe soap on Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:05 pm

TheSmidge wrote:
That seems to be a Scottish problem, not just Edinburgh. We should have been streets ahead of Wales, but couldn't convert the pressure into points at crucial times. Its been like that for a long time, suggesting its a systemic issue rather than specific to one team or coach.


all teams do much more kicking, especially box kicking, since the last change of the breakdown interpretation. Turnovers too risky, so kick and contest. Well documented and commented on. As is Edinburgh's penchant for the same going back several seasons, pre dating breakdown changes
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Re: Edinburgh v Munster - Sat 20th 1935 ko

Postby JDCSR on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:33 pm

It feels a bit like the standards in defence have gone up and up across the board. There are very few defences that will give you easy points these days. We've kept pace with that.

However our attack is completely stagnant and has not moved forward (literally during games). VDM's sheer brute force masked the issue and we're unlikely to unearth another like him.
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