Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:28 am

Anyone got the stats on how many starts Sheil has been given, 28 appearances but how many have been starts?

Does not feel like many, these experiences are important especially for learning and development, he is a good scrum half makes good impact off the bench but has to be allowed to learn from his mistakes and be given another shot next week not just bumped back to bench warming.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby BigD163 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:34 am

The Feral Goat wrote:Anyone got the stats on how many starts Sheil has been given, 28 appearances but how many have been starts?

Does not feel like many, these experiences are important especially for learning and development, he is a good scrum half makes good impact off the bench but has to be allowed to learn from his mistakes and be given another shot next week not just bumped back to bench warming.


This year he has started 3 of 10 this season, Home to Ospreys and away to Sale and Connacht. In the two away games he was subbed on 48 mins.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:46 am

The Feral Goat wrote:Anyone got the stats on how many starts Sheil has been given, 28 appearances but how many have been starts?

Does not feel like many, these experiences are important especially for learning and development, he is a good scrum half makes good impact off the bench but has to be allowed to learn from his mistakes and be given another shot next week not just bumped back to bench warming.



TFG, if you type "itsrugby" and then put the player's name after it into google, you get the site with all the stats

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/players/charl ... 36690.html


edit, I don't think that is quite up to date with Shiel, but it does get updated regularly.
Last edited by Tichtheid on Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:49 am

BigD163 wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:Bit harsh writing off Charlie Shiel after that performance. Don't think he managed the conditions well but think all our 9s would have struggled with the obligatory box kicking routine in the first half.

I just noticed from the highlights how well Sau did with the offload for Chamberlain's try, on top of the good game he had before that.


I don't think anyone is writing off Shiel but questioning if he's going to live up to his potential in this current set up that places so much emphasis on 9 making decisions.

I hope Cockers starts him again next weekend. I guess VdW is starting for Scotland so should run out Shiel and Chamberlain again.


I don't think Shiel is the problem. I think is questionable whether many of our young guys can reach their potential under this coaching staff.


Yes I agree with that. With the exception of the forward pack who by and large mostly are.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby gowrie on Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:39 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Yes I agree with that. With the exception of the forward pack who by and large mostly are.


Issues there too though, McCallum, Bradbury, Crosbie all struggling this season, and in general we've struggled to get any young props through to the squad in recent years (though that may be outside of the coaches' control)
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby disco on Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:19 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
disco wrote:
Trophyhunter wrote:On Kinghorn Stats will show that full backs have the least amount of contact in game. Ritchie was a a precocious physical specimen at a young age but had some lengthy injury spells along the way . Scrum half is a physically attritional position and the thrust of my point is to use teenage talent sparingly to give them space to grow physically and develop their game, make mistakes and push their boundaries.Also , to learn to organise their time and get on top of further education arrangements for life after Rugby . Chamberlain has just turned 21 and is now showing greater readiness for 1st team action than he did earlier in the season when he was looking so much more limited . Optimistic about him coming through iover he next 6 months.

Jonny Gray, Scott Cummings and both Fagersons were also first team regulars as teenagers in far more physically attritional positions than scrum half.



I think "first team regulars" is pushing it a bit, Zander started five games in two seasons before he was twenty, which is of course still very young for a front row player.

Cummings also made five starts as a teenager.

Matt Fagerson made three starts at 19, before making himself a regular starter the following season at 20.

Jonny Gray is the one, he started the 16/17 season as a regular at 19, turned 20 after he'd already started seven games and continued to be the first choice in his postion.

All numbers are from itsrugby

First team rather than first XV - I'm talking matchday squad involvements (as long as they got off the bench). Apologies if I wasn't being clear.

Pinch of salt with itsrugby on occasion. They have the wrong date of birth for Matt Fagerson for example (it's 1998 not 1997) and his appearance numbers are incorrect (they seem to have a particular issue with occasionally mixing up brothers in the same team).

Jonny Gray played 14 times for Glasgow as a teenager (missed a bit as well as he was off getting Scotland caps at 19); Scott Cummings 9 times (first half of the 2016/17 season was wiped out by injury); Zander Fagerson 22 times; Matt Fagerson 26 times. Could chuck Stuart Hogg (24 times) in there as well.

Jamie Dobie has 18 appearances under his belt with the remainder of this season to go before he turns 20.

I guess my point is there are some preternatural talents who don't require to mature physically and mentally while in their teens and very early 20s and then need to be eased into the first team (matchday 23!) They're definitely the exception rather than the rule but the Edinburgh and Glasgow players already mentioned are in that group. So is Dobie.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:41 pm

disco wrote:First team rather than first XV - I'm talking matchday squad involvements (as long as they got off the bench).



It's a good thing you made that qualification, or Chamberlain could be called a regular :D


I guess my point is there are some preternatural talents who don't require to mature physically and mentally while in their teens and very early 20s and then need to be eased into the first team (matchday 23!) They're definitely the exception rather than the rule but the Edinburgh and Glasgow players already mentioned are in that group. So is Dobie.



For all the fanfare over Jamie Ritchie, and I count myself as a huge fan, Bradbury was the one knocking players onto their airses when they both started appearing regularly.

I seem to remember Ritchie himself saying that he needed the gym work to operate effectively at the pro level. It's a whole different game to when I played in the black and white days.

The collisions yesterday at Murrayfield were ridiculous, tbh, you can really hear them when there is no crowd to cover the ref mic.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby The Feral Goat on Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:49 pm

Miller and Hoyland called up to Scotland squad.

Cardiff match is Monday 22nd

Least Scotland v Italy is Saturday lunchtime and in Edinburgh so we may get a few back hopefully
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby BigD163 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:56 pm

gowrie wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Yes I agree with that. With the exception of the forward pack who by and large mostly are.


Issues there too though, McCallum, Bradbury, Crosbie all struggling this season, and in general we've struggled to get any young props through to the squad in recent years (though that may be outside of the coaches' control)


There has been little front row and some second row development (Davidson had been at 2 clubs prior to joining) and the back row hasn't really seen a huge amount of development.

It is debateable how many of those you could credit this staff having improved have actually reached their potential. Not all of that would be the fault of the coaching staff to be fair.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby BigD163 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:58 pm

disco wrote:Matt Fagerson 26 times.


Compared to Boyle and Darge being now 21 and getting 48 minutes this season.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:00 pm

BigD163 wrote:
disco wrote:Matt Fagerson 26 times.


Compared to Boyle and Darge being now 21 and getting 48 minutes this season.


One if not both should have both been loaned to Glasgow for Lokotui and Ioane's minutes. Shocking SRU decision making.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby liveinhope on Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:44 pm

What on earth did Hoyland do on Saturday to warrant a squad place instead of Rufus Maclean (who is dropped).Maclean was superb on Friday night-three excellent tackles and three/four high balls taken from the kick off standing outv (plus his pacy attacking the previous week). Odd-and important that only an injury away from being in the 23.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby liveinhope on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:35 pm

What on earth did Hoyland do on Saturday to warrant a squad place instead of Rufus Maclean (who is dropped).Maclean was superb on Friday night-three excellent tackles and three/four high balls taken from the kick off standing outv (plus his pacy attacking the previous week). Odd-and important that only an injury away from being in the 23.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:54 pm

liveinhope wrote:What on earth did Hoyland do on Saturday to warrant a squad place instead of Rufus Maclean (who is dropped).Maclean was superb on Friday night-three excellent tackles and three/four high balls taken from the kick off standing outv (plus his pacy attacking the previous week). Odd-and important that only an injury away from being in the 23.


Hoyland can play 15 and McLean can't I guess.
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Re: Connacht v Edinburgh Sat 13th 1935 KO

Postby BigD163 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:31 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
liveinhope wrote:What on earth did Hoyland do on Saturday to warrant a squad place instead of Rufus Maclean (who is dropped).Maclean was superb on Friday night-three excellent tackles and three/four high balls taken from the kick off standing outv (plus his pacy attacking the previous week). Odd-and important that only an injury away from being in the 23.


Hoyland can play 15 and McLean can't I guess.


Rotating bodies through the camp. Edinburgh don't play until Monday and there are a few bodies ahead of McLean or Hoyland.
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