Dragons Sunday 28th

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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:15 am

Trophyhunter wrote:Kinghorn played flat and that sped up ball and loosened structures of both sides , especially as Dragons set up to chase the points. VDW plays deeper because he has been coached that way and he kicks more so needs the space. Can Kinghorn improve play from 10 ? Signs are promising for sure.Certainly gives us options. He played 10 all through school and youths at Currie. . He switched to 15 in U20s to accommodate the more specialised talents of Hastings.
Fantastic showing from youngsters who were probably inspired by our flying Fijians who were absolutely terrific and helped by the encouragement of some of the more experienced hands on the pitch who could be heard over the crowd sound. All very encouraging.



Quote from Cockers after the game

"It got unstructured in that first half. We thought Dragons would come and play mere expansively in the second-half to score points because they needed to to get to fourth so that opened the game up.

"Jaco just got a little bit of a dead leg so its not too bad, but more precautionary because obviously we've got a big game next weekend.

"Blair at 10, he's not the best of kickers and he's more of a runner. He's a fantastic open field runner, he's quality there.



Translation - The game was open because the Drags wanted to play that way, Blair is a good runner, but he's not going to be playing ten too often as he can't execute the kicking plan we want.


I remember Austin Healy saying that tall flay halves find it difficult to kick because of the long levers, but Owen Farrel, Beauden Barrett and Johnny Sexton are all tall.
Kinghorn would learn that kicking game, he has a hard flat pass, it showed yesterday, it's something Hoggy lacked in the Italy game.

However, it's all moot, Cockers isn't going to play him at ten except in an emergency, so that's that.

Even if he doesn't play ten, he should be used as the first receiver far more often, but that would mean a huge change in mindset and game plan from the coaching set up.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby Impega on Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:19 am

That second period was possibly the most enjoyable half of rugby to watch of our whole season. Really impressed with the young lads, and how good is Mark Bennett is when he is actually given front-foot ball?!

Great to see Connor Boyle getting a solid run-out and winning a couple of excellent turnovers. With Kunavula also looking good we definitely remain stacked in the back-row, Miller and Darge's exits notwithstanding.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby liveinhope on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:15 am

Crazy that despite Miller and Darge leaving we still have back rows of:
Ritchie Haining Watson
Bradbury Kunuvala Crosbie
Boyle
(Oh and I forgot some guy called Mata!)
Crazy strength but still too much (financial and playing) resources committed to one area surely?
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby robdinsdale on Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:07 pm

liveinhope wrote:Crazy that despite Miller and Darge leaving we still have back rows of:
Ritchie Haining Watson
Bradbury Kunuvala Crosbie
Boyle
(Oh and I forgot some guy called Mata!)
Crazy strength but still too much (financial and playing) resources committed to one area surely?


Arguably, but I think three of them are guaranteed to be unavailable over international periods. Hamish has played 5 league games for us this season and Ritchie 2 if the Pro14 website is correct.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby joe soap on Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:39 pm

robdinsdale wrote:
liveinhope wrote:Crazy that despite Miller and Darge leaving we still have back rows of:
Ritchie Haining Watson
Bradbury Kunuvala Crosbie
Boyle
(Oh and I forgot some guy called Mata!)
Crazy strength but still too much (financial and playing) resources committed to one area surely?


Arguably, but I think three of them are guaranteed to be unavailable over international periods. Hamish has played 5 league games for us this season and Ritchie 2 if the Pro14 website is correct.


this season is not the norm though, don't usually have 10 week bubbles twice or whatever it was

Mata will be available during 6N, as would Kunuvala. Autumn tests an issue granted.
That situation (losing 3 or 4 during test windows) has been obvious for quite while though; Cockerill has made an issue of it with the front row and moved to address it (more Boks rather than Scots!), I think he has a bit to do in the back row. What I might take issue with is the cash resource tied up rather than the player resource, not all those guys are on huge wages - Boyle obviously, Crosbie and Kunuvala probably not either. Haining will have got a raise on the back of his caps but again won't be mega money even so. So maybe too much cash tied up there, but not as bad as it might seem at first glance. Next contract renewals could be different
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby joe soap on Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:44 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
Trophyhunter wrote:Kinghorn played flat and that sped up ball and loosened structures of both sides , especially as Dragons set up to chase the points. VDW plays deeper because he has been coached that way and he kicks more so needs the space. Can Kinghorn improve play from 10 ? Signs are promising for sure.Certainly gives us options. He played 10 all through school and youths at Currie. . He switched to 15 in U20s to accommodate the more specialised talents of Hastings.
Fantastic showing from youngsters who were probably inspired by our flying Fijians who were absolutely terrific and helped by the encouragement of some of the more experienced hands on the pitch who could be heard over the crowd sound. All very encouraging.



Quote from Cockers after the game

"It got unstructured in that first half. We thought Dragons would come and play mere expansively in the second-half to score points because they needed to to get to fourth so that opened the game up.

"Jaco just got a little bit of a dead leg so its not too bad, but more precautionary because obviously we've got a big game next weekend.

"Blair at 10, he's not the best of kickers and he's more of a runner. He's a fantastic open field runner, he's quality there.



Translation - The game was open because the Drags wanted to play that way, Blair is a good runner, but he's not going to be playing ten too often as he can't execute the kicking plan we want.


I remember Austin Healy saying that tall flay halves find it difficult to kick because of the long levers, but Owen Farrel, Beauden Barrett and Johnny Sexton are all tall.
Kinghorn would learn that kicking game, he has a hard flat pass, it showed yesterday, it's something Hoggy lacked in the Italy game.

However, it's all moot, Cockers isn't going to play him at ten except in an emergency, so that's that.

Even if he doesn't play ten, he should be used as the first receiver far more often, but that would mean a huge change in mindset and game plan from the coaching set up.



last 2 paragraphs nail it for me.

I thought Kinghorn did really well in that game, but he didn't play like a normal 10. There was no attempt to control the game, just run. won't work against big boys or even in another game where the opposition are not chasing so hard. His ability to control and kick under pressure wasn't tested. There were times he was more like Mata or Kunuvala playing 10 than Russell!
But he should be looking for work as an alternative receiver much more in attack, and what impressed me most yesterday was that in the second half he seemed to step up a s a senior player and leader on the park. I've not seen that before from him and didn't think I ever would. Great to see.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:51 pm

joe soap wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:
liveinhope wrote:Crazy that despite Miller and Darge leaving we still have back rows of:
Ritchie Haining Watson
Bradbury Kunuvala Crosbie
Boyle
(Oh and I forgot some guy called Mata!)
Crazy strength but still too much (financial and playing) resources committed to one area surely?


Arguably, but I think three of them are guaranteed to be unavailable over international periods. Hamish has played 5 league games for us this season and Ritchie 2 if the Pro14 website is correct.


this season is not the norm though, don't usually have 10 week bubbles twice or whatever it was

Mata will be available during 6N, as would Kunuvala. Autumn tests an issue granted.
That situation (losing 3 or 4 during test windows) has been obvious for quite while though; Cockerill has made an issue of it with the front row and moved to address it (more Boks rather than Scots!), I think he has a bit to do in the back row. What I might take issue with is the cash resource tied up rather than the player resource, not all those guys are on huge wages - Boyle obviously, Crosbie and Kunuvala probably not either. Haining will have got a raise on the back of his caps but again won't be mega money even so. So maybe too much cash tied up there, but not as bad as it might seem at first glance. Next contract renewals could be different


I wonder if Crosbie and Bradbury especially will look elsewhere. Not sure Bradbury will want to be a second pick 6/8 and not go to try and be a starter in France or maybe England somewhere like Newcastle or Irish.

Boyle was great in his cameo. The problem with having a great backrow is he only has a few games - he's better than that.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby JDCSR on Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:18 pm

Bradbury would probably do well if he left.

I honestly think he's a fantastic blindside. But he won't get in front of Ritchie there and Crosbie is also primarily a 6. Then you've got Haining and the 2 Fijians who might primarily be 8s but can play 6 too.

Great for us to have the depth but for Bradbury if he could go somewhere else and start at 6 every week I think he'd be pushing for Scotland.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby liveinhope on Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:48 pm

Of course if another one left no doubt we'd suddenlyb have a couple of injuries just before theAutumn Tests and...suddenly the cupboard is nearly bare!
Reverting to an earlier post we could well see Kinghorn at 10 again on Sunday if VDW and Chamberlain don't recover (can't see Savala being pitched i to start in Paris).
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:10 pm

liveinhope wrote:Of course if another one left no doubt we'd suddenlyb have a couple of injuries just before theAutumn Tests and...suddenly the cupboard is nearly bare!
Reverting to an earlier post we could well see Kinghorn at 10 again on Sunday if VDW and Chamberlain don't recover (can't see Savala being pitched i to start in Paris).


When talking about players leaving though you have to think someone who was a regular Scotland international probably doesn't fancy being a second choice here. So it's not we need to keep him it's does he want to stay. Same with Darge, he's 9th choice here watching Lokotui play for Glasgow. It's a simple decision for the lad if they want him.

If Bradbury left I'm sure we'd sign someone. Not as his calibre but that's where we need to coach up guys like Muncaster to reach his potential.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby robdinsdale on Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:04 am

joe soap wrote:
robdinsdale wrote:
liveinhope wrote:Crazy that despite Miller and Darge leaving we still have back rows of:
Ritchie Haining Watson
Bradbury Kunuvala Crosbie
Boyle
(Oh and I forgot some guy called Mata!)
Crazy strength but still too much (financial and playing) resources committed to one area surely?


Arguably, but I think three of them are guaranteed to be unavailable over international periods. Hamish has played 5 league games for us this season and Ritchie 2 if the Pro14 website is correct.


this season is not the norm though, don't usually have 10 week bubbles twice or whatever it was

Mata will be available during 6N, as would Kunuvala. Autumn tests an issue granted.
That situation (losing 3 or 4 during test windows) has been obvious for quite while though; Cockerill has made an issue of it with the front row and moved to address it (more Boks rather than Scots!), I think he has a bit to do in the back row. What I might take issue with is the cash resource tied up rather than the player resource, not all those guys are on huge wages - Boyle obviously, Crosbie and Kunuvala probably not either. Haining will have got a raise on the back of his caps but again won't be mega money even so. So maybe too much cash tied up there, but not as bad as it might seem at first glance. Next contract renewals could be different


Agreed that the situation has been exaggerated this year.

I'm surprised in some ways that we were able to keep both Watson and Mata this year and even if just one of those had been tempted by money/lifestyle elsewhere the squad overall would probably be looking more balanced now.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby robdinsdale on Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:09 am

JDCSR wrote:Bradbury would probably do well if he left.

I honestly think he's a fantastic blindside. But he won't get in front of Ritchie there and Crosbie is also primarily a 6. Then you've got Haining and the 2 Fijians who might primarily be 8s but can play 6 too.

Great for us to have the depth but for Bradbury if he could go somewhere else and start at 6 every week I think he'd be pushing for Scotland.


People think he's off form because he's not doing the big carries in the open spaces these days but he's a big, imposing 6 who does the grunt work - think that was his perceived weakness when he was younger but sorted now.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby joe soap on Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:01 pm

Trophyhunter wrote:Kinghorn played flat and that sped up ball and loosened structures of both sides , especially as Dragons set up to chase the points. VDW plays deeper because he has been coached that way and he kicks more so needs the space. Can Kinghorn improve play from 10 ? Signs are promising for sure.Certainly gives us options. He played 10 all through school and youths at Currie. . He switched to 15 in U20s to accommodate the more specialised talents of Hastings.


He wasn't moved t accommodate Hastings.
Kinghorn has 3 seasons at U20s. Only in his final one was he in the same team as Hastings. He started his firstU20 as a 10, but was poor and shared it with Josh Henderson. Second campaign he was already at fullback, with Rory Hutchieson at 10

He was a big lad at 10 as a schoolboy, best player in the backs? Play at 10. He was awful when he played for the U20s there, hence moved to 15
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:04 pm

joe soap wrote:
Trophyhunter wrote:Kinghorn played flat and that sped up ball and loosened structures of both sides , especially as Dragons set up to chase the points. VDW plays deeper because he has been coached that way and he kicks more so needs the space. Can Kinghorn improve play from 10 ? Signs are promising for sure.Certainly gives us options. He played 10 all through school and youths at Currie. . He switched to 15 in U20s to accommodate the more specialised talents of Hastings.


He wasn't moved t accommodate Hastings.
Kinghorn has 3 seasons at U20s. Only in his final one was he in the same team as Hastings. He started his firstU20 as a 10, but was poor and shared it with Josh Henderson. Second campaign he was already at fullback, with Rory Hutchieson at 10

He was a big lad at 10 as a schoolboy, best player in the backs? Play at 10. He was awful when he played for the U20s there, hence moved to 15


Hutchinson was first season 10, Hastings second and Henderson/Eastgate third.

I think Kinghorn was Scotland under18s 10 then that same season he went with the 20s and played 15. I don't think he did play for the 20s at 10. If he did it was his first year with them.
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Re: Dragons Sunday 28th

Postby joe soap on Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:18 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
joe soap wrote:
Trophyhunter wrote:Kinghorn played flat and that sped up ball and loosened structures of both sides , especially as Dragons set up to chase the points. VDW plays deeper because he has been coached that way and he kicks more so needs the space. Can Kinghorn improve play from 10 ? Signs are promising for sure.Certainly gives us options. He played 10 all through school and youths at Currie. . He switched to 15 in U20s to accommodate the more specialised talents of Hastings.


He wasn't moved t accommodate Hastings.
Kinghorn has 3 seasons at U20s. Only in his final one was he in the same team as Hastings. He started his firstU20 as a 10, but was poor and shared it with Josh Henderson. Second campaign he was already at fullback, with Rory Hutchieson at 10

He was a big lad at 10 as a schoolboy, best player in the backs? Play at 10. He was awful when he played for the U20s there, hence moved to 15


Hutchinson was first season 10, Hastings second and Henderson/Eastgate third.

I think Kinghorn was Scotland under18s 10 then that same season he went with the 20s and played 15. I don't think he did play for the 20s at 10. If he did it was his first year with them.


Tks. Wasn't convinced myself I had them in the right order!
Point remains, he wasn't moved because of Hastings, he was behind all those guys as a 10. I am certain I saw Kinghorn at 10 though. I thought starting but that could be my memory failing - I do know he was shut and was pulled back to 15.
He is lot more experienced now tbf, but I can't see him ever controlling a game from 10. And a waste of his ability to try to force that
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