Cockerill Gone

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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby sammy on Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:51 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Barclay's time at Edinburgh is a strange one though. Missed the first year with the nasty injury but when he returned was starting 6 and Ritchie/Bradbury/Crosbie never got a look in other then rest periods. One of the more frustrating games of Cockers' time here was that extremely winnable Munster Champions Cup QF where Barclay and the team were obvious goosed by 70 but he didn't put Ritchie on. Ritchie was clearly the better option that whole season.
He shouldn't have been in the starting 15 IMO. He didn't live up to his reputation after injury, but Cockers was gave him every chance. Was a poor signing in hindsight for Edinburgh

Also not sure when noted snake and awful man manager Scott Johnson froze him out is an indictment on Barclay. Barclay then was vice captain for Scotland's renaissance...
Not bigging up SJ, but no smoke without fire, part of our unhappy camp at world cup too, every one assumes it was just Russel being disruptive.

Not that his piece isn't a hit job, I think it's quite disappointing he wrote it. But not much actually seemed unfair and not much wasn't said on here as a fan looking in. It was the tone as much as the content, came across very personal and a bit nasty. Timing a bit to eager too.

I do wish Cockers well though and agree he deserved to be thanked and praised for his job. I really enjoy reading and listening to sports coaches stuff particularly in the NFL/NBA/football and even Alex Sanderson's great interview on Alex Shaw's rugby podcast. It's become clear the hard man disciplinarian is being phased out for a more holistic inclusion and empowerment approach with effort as a bottom up rather than top down approach. Also rugby tactically is moving on from 10 man rugby and we went closer to 10 man rugby. Cockers needs to adapt or I fear he'll be left behind. I always liked him as a person and figurehead, I hope he does change and improve.

[color=#8000BF]Agree re: 10 man rugby game, there was times I thought he loosened the reigns a bit, but when it went wrong he reverted back. Not convinced the Scottish fish bowl of player, or our culture, is suited to the collegiate style of coaching. I hope Mike asserts himself and doesn't try to be the players mate, as I think that would be a disaster. I'm not against Cockers moving on, and have my fingers crossed that we can build on what he achieved, but develop a more rounded entertaining game. I just think the timing was poor, and I would have liked him to have left with a bit more appreciation of his achievements. not sure where we would be today if he hadn't fancied the challenge, Edinburgh was far from an attractive option back then. /color]
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby macdone on Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:11 am

sammy wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Barclay's time at Edinburgh is a strange one though. Missed the first year with the nasty injury but when he returned was starting 6 and Ritchie/Bradbury/Crosbie never got a look in other then rest periods. One of the more frustrating games of Cockers' time here was that extremely winnable Munster Champions Cup QF where Barclay and the team were obvious goosed by 70 but he didn't put Ritchie on. Ritchie was clearly the better option that whole season.
He shouldn't have been in the starting 15 IMO. He didn't live up to his reputation after injury, but Cockers was gave him every chance. Was a poor signing in hindsight for Edinburgh

Also not sure when noted snake and awful man manager Scott Johnson froze him out is an indictment on Barclay. Barclay then was vice captain for Scotland's renaissance...
Not bigging up SJ, but no smoke without fire, part of our unhappy camp at world cup too, every one assumes it was just Russel being disruptive.

Not that his piece isn't a hit job, I think it's quite disappointing he wrote it. But not much actually seemed unfair and not much wasn't said on here as a fan looking in. It was the tone as much as the content, came across very personal and a bit nasty. Timing a bit to eager too.

I do wish Cockers well though and agree he deserved to be thanked and praised for his job. I really enjoy reading and listening to sports coaches stuff particularly in the NFL/NBA/football and even Alex Sanderson's great interview on Alex Shaw's rugby podcast. It's become clear the hard man disciplinarian is being phased out for a more holistic inclusion and empowerment approach with effort as a bottom up rather than top down approach. Also rugby tactically is moving on from 10 man rugby and we went closer to 10 man rugby. Cockers needs to adapt or I fear he'll be left behind. I always liked him as a person and figurehead, I hope he does change and improve.

[color=#8000BF]Agree re: 10 man rugby game, there was times I thought he loosened the reigns a bit, but when it went wrong he reverted back. Not convinced the Scottish fish bowl of player, or our culture, is suited to the collegiate style of coaching. I hope Mike asserts himself and doesn't try to be the players mate, as I think that would be a disaster. I'm not against Cockers moving on, and have my fingers crossed that we can build on what he achieved, but develop a more rounded entertaining game. I just think the timing was poor, and I would have liked him to have left with a bit more appreciation of his achievements. not sure where we would be today if he hadn't fancied the challenge, Edinburgh was far from an attractive option back then. /color]


Agreed, I have similar concerns. I'm happy with Mike Blair but I feel he needs to find his Telfer (modern day) or someone who will ensure some of the basic standards don't go back. Lawrie was brilliant at club level so we'll see if he steps up.

It was nice to see Duhan making some nice comments about Cockerill, crediting him with rescuing his career.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm

sammy wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Barclay's time at Edinburgh is a strange one though. Missed the first year with the nasty injury but when he returned was starting 6 and Ritchie/Bradbury/Crosbie never got a look in other then rest periods. One of the more frustrating games of Cockers' time here was that extremely winnable Munster Champions Cup QF where Barclay and the team were obvious goosed by 70 but he didn't put Ritchie on. Ritchie was clearly the better option that whole season.
He shouldn't have been in the starting 15 IMO. He didn't live up to his reputation after injury, but Cockers was gave him every chance. Was a poor signing in hindsight for Edinburgh

Also not sure when noted snake and awful man manager Scott Johnson froze him out is an indictment on Barclay. Barclay then was vice captain for Scotland's renaissance...
Not bigging up SJ, but no smoke without fire, part of our unhappy camp at world cup too, every one assumes it was just Russel being disruptive.

Not that his piece isn't a hit job, I think it's quite disappointing he wrote it. But not much actually seemed unfair and not much wasn't said on here as a fan looking in. It was the tone as much as the content, came across very personal and a bit nasty. Timing a bit to eager too.

I do wish Cockers well though and agree he deserved to be thanked and praised for his job. I really enjoy reading and listening to sports coaches stuff particularly in the NFL/NBA/football and even Alex Sanderson's great interview on Alex Shaw's rugby podcast. It's become clear the hard man disciplinarian is being phased out for a more holistic inclusion and empowerment approach with effort as a bottom up rather than top down approach. Also rugby tactically is moving on from 10 man rugby and we went closer to 10 man rugby. Cockers needs to adapt or I fear he'll be left behind. I always liked him as a person and figurehead, I hope he does change and improve.

[color=#8000BF]Agree re: 10 man rugby game, there was times I thought he loosened the reigns a bit, but when it went wrong he reverted back. Not convinced the Scottish fish bowl of player, or our culture, is suited to the collegiate style of coaching. I hope Mike asserts himself and doesn't try to be the players mate, as I think that would be a disaster. I'm not against Cockers moving on, and have my fingers crossed that we can build on what he achieved, but develop a more rounded entertaining game. I just think the timing was poor, and I would have liked him to have left with a bit more appreciation of his achievements. not sure where we would be today if he hadn't fancied the challenge, Edinburgh was far from an attractive option back then. /color]


I agree he shouldn't have picked Barclay but that was a big failing of Cockers especially this season. He was far too loyal to names and didn't trust younger guys. Barclay over Ritchie was particularly mental because Ritchie was a pretty good international quality player at that point. I could about accept picking Barclay for leadership reasons but if he's not in the leadership group it's a moot point.

I definitely agree it came across as a bit personal. Timing was ultimately just journalism why Cockers left is a more interesting story if he's in the press at the time.

I'm sure it wasn't a happy camp Ryan Wilson has come out and said he was dropped for world cup disruptions. Seems like Townsend annoyed a lot of senior players - such as Finn Russell mutinied. Players have to take some blame too but Townsend came out and said he changed things. Ironically from being a disciplinarian to more trusting. In all walks of life now people just don't respond to harsh leadership. Townsend changes how he approaches player management slightly and Scotland but an uptick in form. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Collegiate coaching is maybe difficult in a comfortable environment as the Scottish pro clubs can be. But that's a failing of the players as much as coaching. If a coach empowers players to drive standards and make decisions you hope the guys you have step up. If they also are nervous of the options we have and that includes hungry young players then they'll play hard for the spot. Even high standards Cockers saw key players who weren't performing or really improving keeping their jersey and going stale. Blair Kinghorn for example. I think it's partly on the SRU as well guys such as Magnus Bradbury who isn't really playing or kicking on as a player should be strongly advised to go elsewhere. If you can go through the motions and continue to get contracts we have a problem.

I agree Cockers did a good job and he deserves praise. And he was a great guy treating the fans well. I'm concerned about Blair coming in too. I was really pushing for Cockers appointment and right until Feb/March 2020 I thought we were really going to challenge. But last season really painfully showed his limitations. As well as Matt Scott leaving meaning our backs just had nothing. And there was clearly no plan to expand the gameplan and a refusal to play the youngsters. Ultimately part of the pro teams job is to blood young guys. It became untenable and I'm glad both parties recognised that.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby sammy on Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:43 pm

Appreciate the replies, don't think we're that far away in thoughts. Missed the Duhan's comments and Ryan Wilson's, must pay more attention. If Blair is the heir apparent for Townsend we'll have him for a while, as I don't see Townsend going anywhere soon - will be interesting to read Townsend's memoirs of his time in Scotland when he does move on. Lets hope Blair is just so good that there's some pressure at the top though ;)
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby BigD163 on Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:06 am

The disciplinarian style of coaching is out dated and often holds teams back. Just look what happened at Quins when Gustard was removed. Blair has worked under enough coaches to know when to use the carrot or the stick.

Mike Blair will need time. He needs to completely change the attacking philosophies, the half backs need a lot of work, the squad is pretty shallow in some positions and the Pro16 is the hardest domestic competition we've had.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby The Chiel on Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:49 pm

A bit taken aback to see that "On The Blindside" in The Rugby Paper, which is usually pretty clued up ( but not infallible ), running an article linking Cockers with Eddie Jones to replace the recently departed ( to Wasps, not permanently ! :) ) John Mitchell. Seems to me to be too much of a stretch - although I'd dearly love to see Cockers dishing it out to Marler and Sinckler !

TRP also say Clermont may be interested in taking him back, working under Jono Gibbes. OTBS then rather pull their own rug out from under their feet by saying that actually Cockers could take his time deciding his next move.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:55 pm

https://twitter.com/theburghwatch/statu ... 05506?s=20

Very interesting questions teammates asked Rory Sutherland. Very interesting.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Trophyhunter on Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:08 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
sammy wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Barclay's time at Edinburgh is a strange one though. Missed the first year with the nasty injury but when he returned was starting 6 and Ritchie/Bradbury/Crosbie never got a look in other then rest periods. One of the more frustrating games of Cockers' time here was that extremely winnable Munster Champions Cup QF where Barclay and the team were obvious goosed by 70 but he didn't put Ritchie on. Ritchie was clearly the better option that whole season.
He shouldn't have been in the starting 15 IMO. He didn't live up to his reputation after injury, but Cockers was gave him every chance. Was a poor signing in hindsight for Edinburgh

Also not sure when noted snake and awful man manager Scott Johnson froze him out is an indictment on Barclay. Barclay then was vice captain for Scotland's renaissance...
Not bigging up SJ, but no smoke without fire, part of our unhappy camp at world cup too, every one assumes it was just Russel being disruptive.

Not that his piece isn't a hit job, I think it's quite disappointing he wrote it. But not much actually seemed unfair and not much wasn't said on here as a fan looking in. It was the tone as much as the content, came across very personal and a bit nasty. Timing a bit to eager too.

I do wish Cockers well though and agree he deserved to be thanked and praised for his job. I really enjoy reading and listening to sports coaches stuff particularly in the NFL/NBA/football and even Alex Sanderson's great interview on Alex Shaw's rugby podcast. It's become clear the hard man disciplinarian is being phased out for a more holistic inclusion and empowerment approach with effort as a bottom up rather than top down approach. Also rugby tactically is moving on from 10 man rugby and we went closer to 10 man rugby. Cockers needs to adapt or I fear he'll be left behind. I always liked him as a person and figurehead, I hope he does change and improve.

[color=#8000BF]Agree re: 10 man rugby game, there was times I thought he loosened the reigns a bit, but when it went wrong he reverted back. Not convinced the Scottish fish bowl of player, or our culture, is suited to the collegiate style of coaching. I hope Mike asserts himself and doesn't try to be the players mate, as I think that would be a disaster. I'm not against Cockers moving on, and have my fingers crossed that we can build on what he achieved, but develop a more rounded entertaining game. I just think the timing was poor, and I would have liked him to have left with a bit more appreciation of his achievements. not sure where we would be today if he hadn't fancied the challenge, Edinburgh was far from an attractive option back then. /color]


I agree he shouldn't have picked Barclay but that was a big failing of Cockers especially this season. He was far too loyal to names and didn't trust younger guys. Barclay over Ritchie was particularly mental because Ritchie was a pretty good international quality player at that point. I could about accept picking Barclay for leadership reasons but if he's not in the leadership group it's a moot point.

I definitely agree it came across as a bit personal. Timing was ultimately just journalism why Cockers left is a more interesting story if he's in the press at the time.

I'm sure it wasn't a happy camp Ryan Wilson has come out and said he was dropped for world cup disruptions. Seems like Townsend annoyed a lot of senior players - such as Finn Russell mutinied. Players have to take some blame too but Townsend came out and said he changed things. Ironically from being a disciplinarian to more trusting. In all walks of life now people just don't respond to harsh leadership. Townsend changes how he approaches player management slightly and Scotland but an uptick in form. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Collegiate coaching is maybe difficult in a comfortable environment as the Scottish pro clubs can be. But that's a failing of the players as much as coaching. If a coach empowers players to drive standards and make decisions you hope the guys you have step up. If they also are nervous of the options we have and that includes hungry young players then they'll play hard for the spot. Even high standards Cockers saw key players who weren't performing or really improving keeping their jersey and going stale. Blair Kinghorn for example. I think it's partly on the SRU as well guys such as Magnus Bradbury who isn't really playing or kicking on as a player should be strongly advised to go elsewhere. If you can go through the motions and continue to get contracts we have a problem.

I agree Cockers did a good job and he deserves praise. And he was a great guy treating the fans well. I'm concerned about Blair coming in too. I was really pushing for Cockers appointment and right until Feb/March 2020 I thought we were really going to challenge. But last season really painfully showed his limitations. As well as Matt Scott leaving meaning our backs just had nothing. And there was clearly no plan to expand the gameplan and a refusal to play the youngsters. Ultimately part of the pro teams job is to blood young guys. It became untenable and I'm glad both parties recognised that.


Barclays insight is thoughtful and balanced , he is a smart guy and he gets this right I think. Blair will build on the more positive foundations left by Cockers with a a more multi dimensional approach to the game and a more intelligent leadership style. Cockers was a character who knew how to communicate with the fans but it’s blatantly obvious he has a shelf life as a fixer rather than a developer of rugby clubs.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby BigD163 on Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:21 pm

Anyone in any doubt as to Sutherlands reasoning, or part of it I should say for leaving I think it is pretty clear after Sutherlands Instagram live.

Lions team mates with variations of "I hear Cockerills going to Worcester..." "thoughts on Cockerill leaving". He's obviously been vocal about it.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby The Incredible Shug on Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:42 am

I know that Cockerill dragged us out of the dark days of - [shudders] - Solomons, and thus he's got credit in the bank, but look at players like Sutherland and Barclay, who are some of Scotland's best internationals of the pro era (certainly in the top 30 or so), and their thoughts on him.

Or, alternatively, just think about how we went and lost 56-3 to Racing 92 with 12 internationalists in our starting XV, which is more than the Racing XV had. (And then have a lie down.)

The Cockerill 'project' had hit its ceiling. It's someone else's turn now.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby robdinsdale on Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:25 am

The Incredible Shug wrote:
Or, alternatively, just think about how we went and lost 56-3 to Racing 92 with 12 internationalists in our starting XV, which is more than the Racing XV had. (And then have a lie down.)



Nope, blanked from the memory.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:32 am

The Incredible Shug wrote:I know that Cockerill dragged us out of the dark days of - [shudders] - Solomons, and thus he's got credit in the bank, but look at players like Sutherland and Barclay, who are some of Scotland's best internationals of the pro era (certainly in the top 30 or so), and their thoughts on him.

Or, alternatively, just think about how we went and lost 56-3 to Racing 92 with 12 internationalists in our starting XV, which is more than the Racing XV had. (And then have a lie down.)

The Cockerill 'project' had hit its ceiling. It's someone else's turn now.


Top players and also Scottish rugby isn't positioned for one of the pro clubs to be a black hole for youth development.

I think the Racing game was the final nail in the coffin for me. A total embarrassment.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby The Incredible Shug on Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:04 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Top players and also Scottish rugby isn't positioned for one of the pro clubs to be a black hole for youth development.

I think the Racing game was the final nail in the coffin for me. A total embarrassment.

We're in agreement, then.

Hopefully Blair gives the likes of Chamberlain a decent amount of gametime this season. I reckon Savala is ahead of him though.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby The Incredible Shug on Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:57 pm

Eleven Edinburgh players have the distinction of seeing out the entirety of Richard Cockerill's Edinburgh tenure, having been included in Cockerill's 2017-18 Edinburgh squad at the start of the season and in Blair's 2021-22 Edinburgh squad.

They are Blair Kinghorn, Damien Hoyland, Mark Bennett, Chris Dean, Stuart McInally, Ben Toolis, Grant Gilchrist, Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie, Magnus Bradbury and Viliame Mata.

If we include academy players, then there's also Darcy Graham, George Taylor, Charlie Shiel and Luke Crosbie.

Rory Sutherland, Simon Berghan, Fraser McKenzie and Lewis Carmichael (plus ex-academy players Murray McCallum and Ally Miller) likely would have been in these groups were it not for departures to other clubs, or - in the instances of Fraz and Lewis - tragic, injury-enforced retirement. Duhan van der Merwe is in a similar boat to Bennett, but is now leaving.

The Edinburgh XV with the most caps under Cockerill is:
Blair Kinghorn
Darcy Graham
James Johnstone
Chris Dean
Duhan van der Merwe
Jaco van der Walt
Henry Pyrgos
Pierre Schoeman
Stuart McInally
WP Nel
Ben Toolis
Grant Gilchrist
Jamie Ritchie
Hamish Watson
Viliame Mata
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby The Chiel on Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:14 am

The Chiel wrote:A bit taken aback to see that "On The Blindside" in The Rugby Paper, which is usually pretty clued up ( but not infallible ), running an article linking Cockers with Eddie Jones to replace the recently departed ( to Wasps, not permanently ! :) ) John Mitchell. Seems to me to be too much of a stretch - although I'd dearly love to see Cockers dishing it out to Marler and Sinckler !

TRP also say Clermont may be interested in taking him back, working under Jono Gibbes. OTBS then rather pull their own rug out from under their feet by saying that actually Cockers could take his time deciding his next move.


Cockerill going to work for Jones is now widespread in the English media. Fair to say social media comment on the move is mixed . . .
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