Cockerill Gone

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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:19 am

The Chiel wrote:
Impega wrote:Very interesting reaction article by John Barclay in The Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john ... -2gwv7q7pq

"Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players."


It's an excellent article - if JB isn't used by the SRU yet, they should be getting him on board - and rather bears out the "you can only scream at people for so long" theory. Never an arm round the shoulder, and no arguments. Suits some players, but a minority.

As a long shot, I wonder if Sau would now return ?


It's a total hit piece by Barclay. I think he has a point the players are scared to make decisions probably why back play is so poor. He definitely has a point that it was a very poor environment for youth development.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby The Feral Goat on Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:29 am

BigD163 wrote:I have been thinking about the coaching situation after a few people calling for an experienced quality coach and that "we wont be as good under a new coach" on Facebook (yes I know I should avoid it).

What is the KPIs for a new coach given the SA sides are now involved and the league set up is different? At least second in the group stage of the Pro 16? Blooding youngsters? Being a yes man (as some have suggested it will be)?

Do fans want to see dull rugby that will make the play offs but inevitably lose the first KO game, or closer to exciting rugby that may be a bit more variable in outcome? Ideally we'd want the nirvana of good rugby with results but that may take a while to get to. This squad has been ingrained in Solomons and RC style teams for a while now.


I think the major frustration from Cockerills tenure was that he built a forward pack that, pre-COVID and with our internationals available, could compete with pretty much anyone including Leinster and some of the big French teams. We had a strong set piece and solid platform but never looked to expand from that.

We have lost Sutherland and Berghan and a few other quality players so our pack depth is not as good as it was but should still be competitive against most, S&C has been good if Lumley and co remain, so to my mind the next coach has a more than decent platform to start with. It just needs that evolution and i am not convinced that necessarily has to come form an "Experienced" coach just someone that gives the players a higher tempo attacking remit a bit more structure and in particular our 10s (and/or 9s) the chance to play heads up rugby.

Realistically i think we need to look at Champions Cup qualification, and consistently doing so, as a measure of success.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby robdinsdale on Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:19 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:
BigD163 wrote:I have been thinking about the coaching situation after a few people calling for an experienced quality coach and that "we wont be as good under a new coach" on Facebook (yes I know I should avoid it).

What is the KPIs for a new coach given the SA sides are now involved and the league set up is different? At least second in the group stage of the Pro 16? Blooding youngsters? Being a yes man (as some have suggested it will be)?

Do fans want to see dull rugby that will make the play offs but inevitably lose the first KO game, or closer to exciting rugby that may be a bit more variable in outcome? Ideally we'd want the nirvana of good rugby with results but that may take a while to get to. This squad has been ingrained in Solomons and RC style teams for a while now.


I think the major frustration from Cockerills tenure was that he built a forward pack that, pre-COVID and with our internationals available, could compete with pretty much anyone including Leinster and some of the big French teams. We had a strong set piece and solid platform but never looked to expand from that.

We have lost Sutherland and Berghan and a few other quality players so our pack depth is not as good as it was but should still be competitive against most, S&C has been good if Lumley and co remain, so to my mind the next coach has a more than decent platform to start with. It just needs that evolution and i am not convinced that necessarily has to come form an "Experienced" coach just someone that gives the players a higher tempo attacking remit a bit more structure and in particular our 10s (and/or 9s) the chance to play heads up rugby.

Realistically i think we need to look at Champions Cup qualification, and consistently doing so, as a measure of success.


There's a good foundation there. I reckon the setpiece will look after itself because of the personnel involved and it being ingrained in the club over the last 7 years or so with Solomons and Cockerill. Hopefully the pack maintain the discipline and the physicality that we've gotten used to.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do when we play with a bit more tempo on Mini Murrayfield's faster surface and with the shackles off. Jaco has his knockers in Scottish rugby but I think he's basically a running fly half who has had to play a very constrained game. If him and Shiel get to take some risks, we might actually get somewhere when we have the ball.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby joe soap on Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:27 pm

robdinsdale wrote: There's a good foundation there. I reckon the setpiece will look after itself because of the personnel involved and it being ingrained in the club over the last 7 years or so with Solomons and Cockerill. Hopefully the pack maintain the discipline and the physicality that we've gotten used to.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do when we play with a bit more tempo on Mini Murrayfield's faster surface and with the shackles off. Jaco has his knockers in Scottish rugby but I think he's basically a running fly half who has had to play a very constrained game. If him and Shiel get to take some risks, we might actually get somewhere when we have the ball.


up to a point that is correct, but Edinburgh have not lacked for loads of ball. Its just not always been good ball, its been ball, often slow, too often. Part of Cockerill's gameplan and persona. Just get the ball and bully the opposition. Problem being that at the first sign of serious response from another pack it disintegrated.

There are still plenty of good players but TonySpreadbury off some hasn't helped. And I read with interest the need to maintain discipline and remember who the most penalised player is, one who now has little competition for his place
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby joe soap on Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:28 pm

Having caught up on this, I cannot believe some are suggesting Tandy as head coach. Nope, thinking about again, I really can't
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:01 pm

joe soap wrote:
robdinsdale wrote: There's a good foundation there. I reckon the setpiece will look after itself because of the personnel involved and it being ingrained in the club over the last 7 years or so with Solomons and Cockerill. Hopefully the pack maintain the discipline and the physicality that we've gotten used to.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do when we play with a bit more tempo on Mini Murrayfield's faster surface and with the shackles off. Jaco has his knockers in Scottish rugby but I think he's basically a running fly half who has had to play a very constrained game. If him and Shiel get to take some risks, we might actually get somewhere when we have the ball.


up to a point that is correct, but Edinburgh have not lacked for loads of ball. Its just not always been good ball, its been ball, often slow, too often. Part of Cockerill's gameplan and persona. Just get the ball and bully the opposition. Problem being that at the first sign of serious response from another pack it disintegrated.

There are still plenty of good players but TonySpreadbury off some hasn't helped. And I read with interest the need to maintain discipline and remember who the most penalised player is, one who now has little competition for his place


Who is the most penalised player?
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby BigD163 on Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:14 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
joe soap wrote:
robdinsdale wrote: There's a good foundation there. I reckon the setpiece will look after itself because of the personnel involved and it being ingrained in the club over the last 7 years or so with Solomons and Cockerill. Hopefully the pack maintain the discipline and the physicality that we've gotten used to.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do when we play with a bit more tempo on Mini Murrayfield's faster surface and with the shackles off. Jaco has his knockers in Scottish rugby but I think he's basically a running fly half who has had to play a very constrained game. If him and Shiel get to take some risks, we might actually get somewhere when we have the ball.


up to a point that is correct, but Edinburgh have not lacked for loads of ball. Its just not always been good ball, its been ball, often slow, too often. Part of Cockerill's gameplan and persona. Just get the ball and bully the opposition. Problem being that at the first sign of serious response from another pack it disintegrated.

There are still plenty of good players but TonySpreadbury off some hasn't helped. And I read with interest the need to maintain discipline and remember who the most penalised player is, one who now has little competition for his place


Who is the most penalised player?


I would have a small bet on it being Schoeman but not 100% confident.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby BigD163 on Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:29 pm

joe soap wrote:Having caught up on this, I cannot believe some are suggesting Tandy as head coach. Nope, thinking about again, I really can't


I don't know why but I wouldn't want a defence coach. Tandy has excelled with the national team so I'd leave him there.

I think any of Blair, Dalziel or Walton of those mentioned would be fine. Walton was involved with the England pathway that helped bring through some of the current Lions.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby Crichton Gunner on Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:45 pm

I'd add Macrae to that list. He's done well with us, could be the right time for him. I think the SRU chiefs will have a good idea which of the internal candidates is ready for this role though, us fans can only guess, they have seen them in action so should know who is ready and who isn't.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby bignose on Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:49 pm

Crichton Gunner wrote:I'd add Macrae to that list. He's done well with us, could be the right time for him. I think the SRU chiefs will have a good idea which of the internal candidates is ready for this role though, us fans can only guess, they have seen them in action so should know who is ready and who isn't.


That's a very lovely, trusting view of the SRU CG :)
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby macdone on Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:57 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
The Chiel wrote:
Impega wrote:Very interesting reaction article by John Barclay in The Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john ... -2gwv7q7pq

"Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players."


It's an excellent article - if JB isn't used by the SRU yet, they should be getting him on board - and rather bears out the "you can only scream at people for so long" theory. Never an arm round the shoulder, and no arguments. Suits some players, but a minority.

As a long shot, I wonder if Sau would now return ?


It's a total hit piece by Barclay. I think he has a point the players are scared to make decisions probably why back play is so poor. He definitely has a point that it was a very poor environment for youth development.


I feel pretty uneasy about that article tbh. The SRU will have made Cockerill sign an NDA so he won't be able to respond. Barclay's jibe about Cockerill having a terrible record in knock out matches - at least we got to the knock out stages, in both the Heineken and Pro14.

As for his quote, "Players are no longer used to - and no longer accepting of - being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not." I'm sure he didn't like being shouted at, maybe he felt disrespected. But the problem at Edinburgh for so long has been the opposite - players being too comfortable.

Some players left, others like Mish, Ritchie, Mata and WP signed extensions. At the end of the day Cockerill did more for Edinburgh than Barclay ever did.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby BigD163 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:25 am

macdone wrote:I feel pretty uneasy about that article tbh. The SRU will have made Cockerill sign an NDA so he won't be able to respond. Barclay's jibe about Cockerill having a terrible record in knock out matches - at least we got to the knock out stages, in both the Heineken and Pro14.

As for his quote, "Players are no longer used to - and no longer accepting of - being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not." I'm sure he didn't like being shouted at, maybe he felt disrespected. But the problem at Edinburgh for so long has been the opposite - players being too comfortable.

Some players left, others like Mish, Ritchie, Mata and WP signed extensions. At the end of the day Cockerill did more for Edinburgh than Barclay ever did.


Barclay clearly doesn't like Cockerill, but the fact his time at Edinburgh was short and he spent a good part of it injured doesn't mean his point can't be valid given he has been involved in the team.

Playing devils advocate to your point. Nel has always been treated well by the SRU and knows at his age he will be looked after well and the 3 back rowers are effectively the team golden boys. And they may have seen the writing on the wall earlier this year too. We will probably never know.

The mark of a man is how you treat those lowest on the totem pole as well as those further up. How would Shiel, McCallum etc. say their time has been/was? Or Hugh Fraser who was here for a year then gave up pro rugby completely?
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:09 pm

They would probably say the same as others who feel they haven't had a fair crack of the whip, like Hughes/Jones under Rennie, Others, like Bennet, under Townsend, there were players who didnt like Cotter too.

Barclay had an issue with Cockers as he wanted to keep playing and there wasnt a contract offer from Edinburgh, to be fair in terms of value for money, players coming through and the uncertainty of covid then it was the right decision. If Barclay thought Cockers was so bad, why did he want another contract?

While coaches do need to treat players fairly, I would argue they are not there to be their friend and if a player isn't performing then they need to be frank with them.

Of all the players who have a gripe, it is probably Matt Scott who has most right to, but it didnt sound like his issue was with Cockers. I would have him back in a heardbeat.

I woudl agree that shoutyness only lasts so long, but it was exaclty what we needed at the time and possibly what is still needed in some players. I would bet there will be a number of player who will say how good a coach Cockers is.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby BigD163 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:59 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:They would probably say the same as others who feel they haven't had a fair crack of the whip, like Hughes/Jones under Rennie, Others, like Bennet, under Townsend, there were players who didnt like Cotter too.

Barclay had an issue with Cockers as he wanted to keep playing and there wasnt a contract offer from Edinburgh, to be fair in terms of value for money, players coming through and the uncertainty of covid then it was the right decision. If Barclay thought Cockers was so bad, why did he want another contract?

While coaches do need to treat players fairly, I would argue they are not there to be their friend and if a player isn't performing then they need to be frank with them.

Of all the players who have a gripe, it is probably Matt Scott who has most right to, but it didnt sound like his issue was with Cockers. I would have him back in a heardbeat.

I woudl agree that shoutyness only lasts so long, but it was exaclty what we needed at the time and possibly what is still needed in some players. I would bet there will be a number of player who will say how good a coach Cockers is.


There is a massive difference between being frank with players and going OTT. I don't think there has been a coach involved in the Scottish sides for a while that can be described as being too friendly with the players.

I don't think I have seen anyone argue that Cockerill wasn't what was needed at the time but that time only lasts so long.

Has any player come out and said it is a shame he is leaving? I genuinely don't know so asking the question. Sutherland didn't mention him is the coverage of his move either.

That also is one part of the criticism. Fans could see players rigidly sticking to the plans with little initiative on the pitch and his and his staff have been pretty poor at youth development.
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Re: Cockerill Gone

Postby dolf_lundgren on Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:13 pm

I agree, the main point it former players are rarely the most reliable witnesses.

Players will likely have been told to keep quiet, as it appears Cockers and everyone else has too.
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