Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Tichtheid on Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:19 am

I just don't accept the premise that BK isn't very good, and I really find it very confusing that anyone would think if he was considered not good enough to play wing or full back that he is being considered for the most important position on the park, after tighthead.

His attributes - Toonie was quoted as saying Kinghorn is the quickest player in the Scotland squad, this was before Duhan joined but it appears to me that whilst Duhan is very quick, it's the momentum he has rather than outright blazing pace that makes him a devastating runner.

He's got a very good offloading game and good hands in general, I was concerned that he doesn't have the hard flat pass that the best fly halves possess, but he showed he has it against the Scarlets.

He has a huge boot on him, for goal, for touch-finders and for clearing.

Mike Blair talked about how Kinghorn sees space where others don't, that is what sets some players apart.

He has been used as first receiver many times in games, he is moving on to taking on the whole kicking game, from kick-offs and drop-outs, to touch finders and now to goal kicking.
So in fact I don't see this as a radical move, he is still green obviously, he has to learn to control a tight game, but he is starting from a very creative place and the control is probably easier learned than trying to teach a steady player that X factor stuff.

Fly half is a funny old position for Edinburgh, we're a bit of a graveyard for 10s, since Godman who have we had? We had Scotland's scrum half playing 10, we've had England's inside centre, we've had a guy who couldnae get a start for the Dragons, we've signed a big bucks New Zealander who didn't set the heather alight, we've had Weir, who I liked but the curse got to him and left him injured for the time Cockerill was making his decisions on who should stay or go. We've had Harry Leonard, I actually spoke to a school tutor of his when he first came to Edinburgh and he said Leonard could be very good, but he was steady rather than creative.

Jaco played well the last couple of games after a bit of a nightmare against Benetton, but I think/hope Kinghorn is the guy that can take us further, injury permitting he still has a long career ahead of him, Sexton is 12 years older than him.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby doedin on Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:12 am

As I said earlier I think it is well worth trying to convert him to a 10 for all the reasons Tichthead details above and has been said earlier ... he has pace, pass, kicking, etc. However the biggest test will be is does he have the decision making ability and mentality to play at 10? It is a different proposition playing in the middle of the game than at the back of it, the best 10s aren't necessarily the best rugby players but they are the best decision makers - Finn being an exception! I sincerely hope Kinghorn makes the shift to 10 a success for him and for Embra/Scotland and I have a sneaky suspicion he will do it and do it well.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Tichtheid on Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:17 am

doedin wrote:As I said earlier I think it is well worth trying to convert him to a 10 for all the reasons Tichthead details above and has been said earlier ... he has pace, pass, kicking, etc. However the biggest test will be is does he have the decision making ability and mentality to play at 10? It is a different proposition playing in the middle of the game than at the back of it, the best 10s aren't necessarily the best rugby players but they are the best decision makers - Finn being an exception! I sincerely hope Kinghorn makes the shift to 10 a success for him and for Embra/Scotland and I have a sneaky suspicion he will do it and do it well.



Someone said that it all came too easily to Kinghorn, he never really had to try, that reminded me of Johnnie Beattie.

If this move can focus his mind and get him working hard, he will make a success of it.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:20 am

Tichtheid wrote:I just don't accept the premise that BK isn't very good, and I really find it very confusing that anyone would think if he was considered not good enough to play wing or full back that he is being considered for the most important position on the park, after tighthead.

His attributes - Toonie was quoted as saying Kinghorn is the quickest player in the Scotland squad, this was before Duhan joined but it appears to me that whilst Duhan is very quick, it's the momentum he has rather than outright blazing pace that makes him a devastating runner.

He's got a very good offloading game and good hands in general, I was concerned that he doesn't have the hard flat pass that the best fly halves possess, but he showed he has it against the Scarlets.

He has a huge boot on him, for goal, for touch-finders and for clearing.

Mike Blair talked about how Kinghorn sees space where others don't, that is what sets some players apart.

He has been used as first receiver many times in games, he is moving on to taking on the whole kicking game, from kick-offs and drop-outs, to touch finders and now to goal kicking.
So in fact I don't see this as a radical move, he is still green obviously, he has to learn to control a tight game, but he is starting from a very creative place and the control is probably easier learned than trying to teach a steady player that X factor stuff.

Fly half is a funny old position for Edinburgh, we're a bit of a graveyard for 10s, since Godman who have we had? We had Scotland's scrum half playing 10, we've had England's inside centre, we've had a guy who couldnae get a start for the Dragons, we've signed a big bucks New Zealander who didn't set the heather alight, we've had Weir, who I liked but the curse got to him and left him injured for the time Cockerill was making his decisions on who should stay or go. We've had Harry Leonard, I actually spoke to a school tutor of his when he first came to Edinburgh and he said Leonard could be very good, but he was steady rather than creative.

Jaco played well the last couple of games after a bit of a nightmare against Benetton, but I think/hope Kinghorn is the guy that can take us further, injury permitting he still has a long career ahead of him, Sexton is 12 years older than him.


I don't think he's a bad player. I think he's been pretty poor at fullback for the last few years, I don't think he's a good winger for Scotland. And I think because of all you said it makes sense to try him at 10 at least. He has a lot of positive attributes still. His game Vs scarlets shows he could be really good. The Racing game was frankly a joke but Kinghorn did cause them issues.

But I just don't agree the move is because we've got this really great fullback let's see what he can do at 10 now. I think the move is maybe we got the conversion wrong and he'll never be a top quality fullback/wing let's see him at 10.

I used to be a believer in Kinghorn. Maybe the problem is mine and he's never reached the heights I thought he would. I can accept that. But I don't think he's as good now as the guy who broke through. I think he's stagnated and we now have better options at 15.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Tichtheid on Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:52 am

I see a lot of parallels with Kinghorn and Stuart Hogg who faced some similar criticisms around the same age, "he's weak defensively", "he's no good under a high ball", "he's not breaking the line like he used to".

They have similar scoring rates in terms of tries per match for Glasgow and Edinburgh, (Blair's is better for Scotland, but wingers are supposed to be the marksmen).

Anyway, I can't wait to see where this leads, I'm excited for Kinghorn, he will have howlers along the way, that has to be accepted, if it was easy I'd be playing fly half for Edinburgh and Scotland.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby The Feral Goat on Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:32 pm

Think the other thing to remember about Kinghorn at 15 the last few seasons is that he was in a team playing pretty stodgy rugby behind a box kicking 9 with his main role being kick returns.Had his off field issue to sort as well.

As per TH keen to see how we goes at 10, I think he looks a pretty naturally talented player with a bit of focus and decent coaching he could do well at 10. Some time in Scotland camp as a 10 with Russell and Hastings will be good for him as well.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Tichtheid on Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:29 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:Think the other thing to remember about Kinghorn at 15 the last few seasons is that he was in a team playing pretty stodgy rugby behind a box kicking 9 with his main role being kick returns.



BK isn't the only one who looked a shadow of the potential they have, it looks like we've got the real Mark Bennett playing with us now, Charlie Shiel got more conservative with every game last season, last week he look terrific.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:46 am

Tichtheid wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:Think the other thing to remember about Kinghorn at 15 the last few seasons is that he was in a team playing pretty stodgy rugby behind a box kicking 9 with his main role being kick returns.



BK isn't the only one who looked a shadow of the potential they have, it looks like we've got the real Mark Bennett playing with us now, Charlie Shiel got more conservative with every game last season, last week he look terrific.


True I think Bennett is what he is I don't blame Cockers for that as Matt Scott was unplayable his second year here. Dean and JJ maxed out their abilities too.

And whilst Cockerill didn't improve many backs the back 3 were actually great. Duhan, Graham, Sau were all class. I thought Hoyland is always good too.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Tichtheid on Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:52 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:
The Feral Goat wrote:Think the other thing to remember about Kinghorn at 15 the last few seasons is that he was in a team playing pretty stodgy rugby behind a box kicking 9 with his main role being kick returns.



BK isn't the only one who looked a shadow of the potential they have, it looks like we've got the real Mark Bennett playing with us now, Charlie Shiel got more conservative with every game last season, last week he look terrific.


True I think Bennett is what he is I don't blame Cockers for that as Matt Scott was unplayable his second year here. Dean and JJ maxed out their abilities too.

And whilst Cockerill didn't improve many backs the back 3 were actually great. Duhan, Graham, Sau were all class. I thought Hoyland is always good too.



There were a lot of criticisms of Sau, particularly on various defensive issues, I wasn't one of the critics, but he did get better as the season wore on, but we let him go.
As we did with Matt Scott, despite as the story goes, an offer being on the table, then withdrawn and apparently Scott going to them and saying "make me any offer to stay", but they didn't.

If Cockerill really wanted him he'd have still been with us.

Were Duhan and Graham great? To a point, but I wonder how good they could have been with a different set up.

I'm looking forward to Boffelli arriving at some point
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby toocoldhere on Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:19 pm

toocoldhere wrote:
Trophyhunter wrote:Have enjoyed catching some of the Super 6 and would cautiously endorse it as a step in the right direction subject to the realities of club economics. The signing of a of Bofelli is of course exciting but who does he displace ? Taking Saturday’s backline it would have been Hoyland , Immelmann , Bennett or JJ and or Currie off the bench ! We have to be careful we don't overstock and block opportunities for other good players and emerging native talent.


Definitely Immelman


He was much better today. Couple of duff passes but the way he bashed through two defenders was the kind of stuff that if done by Duhan would have us all hard.

If he keeps up this pace of improving week on week it will be great!
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:14 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:

BK isn't the only one who looked a shadow of the potential they have, it looks like we've got the real Mark Bennett playing with us now, Charlie Shiel got more conservative with every game last season, last week he look terrific.


True I think Bennett is what he is I don't blame Cockers for that as Matt Scott was unplayable his second year here. Dean and JJ maxed out their abilities too.

And whilst Cockerill didn't improve many backs the back 3 were actually great. Duhan, Graham, Sau were all class. I thought Hoyland is always good too.



There were a lot of criticisms of Sau, particularly on various defensive issues, I wasn't one of the critics, but he did get better as the season wore on, but we let him go.
As we did with Matt Scott, despite as the story goes, an offer being on the table, then withdrawn and apparently Scott going to them and saying "make me any offer to stay", but they didn't.

If Cockerill really wanted him he'd have still been with us.

Were Duhan and Graham great? To a point, but I wonder how good they could have been with a different set up.

I'm looking forward to Boffelli arriving at some point


Okay so if we say Sau started poorly which is maybe a fair point. He certainly improved massively.

Both vdm and Graham are physical freaks which helps - Duhan had a played a few pro games and Graham had played none but both got to be really good. Can they be better? Hopefully! But we can't say that Kinghorn (also a physical freak) had no chance under cockers and Hodge because both Graham and Duhan were introduced to pro rugby and did really well both becoming two of the better wingers in the league and internationally.

Scott is a weird one, I don't really believe he was ready to sign and Edinburgh removed the contract. I think he shopped around for offers and didn't get one by which time Edinburgh had moved on. But he was amazing his second year here once he'd got the weight off. We'll never know though. I'm happy he's now a starter with Tigers hope he does well. I think he should start 13 for Scotland too.

It's not that no backs were given a chance or very good under Cockers.

I agree about Bofelli he's going to be very good I suspect. And I think absolutely we play better rugby now so hopefully Graham and Kinghorn go up a level. But I don't believe Cockerill was so terrible backs had no chance - a fair few did really well during his time here.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Tichtheid on Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:55 pm

The Matt Scott story came from the man himself, you can choose to disbelieve him if you like.

Kinghorn played four league games last season, three Euro Cup games and four Rainbow Cup games, scoring a try in each competition.
He was selected as a fullback for the Autumn Series last year and back three for the 2021 Six Nations, along with his previous international selections, I’m going to go with Toonie’s assessment of the player.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:20 pm

Tichtheid wrote:The Matt Scott story came from the man himself, you can choose to disbelieve him if you like.

Kinghorn played four league games last season, three Euro Cup games and four Rainbow Cup games, scoring a try in each competition.
He was selected as a fullback for the Autumn Series last year and back three for the 2021 Six Nations, along with his previous international selections, I’m going to go with Toonie’s assessment of the player.


Yes I think that because of his account of what happened. Scott said he was made an offer, went to think about it and then the offer was gone. Then he said I'll sign for anything. Sounds a lot like someone who went shopping and returned without a better offer by which time Edinburgh had to make some choices. Cockers recommended him to Leicester also.

Do you trust toonie with McCallum? Previously not good enough for Edinburgh, now good enough for Scotland?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby djphilp on Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:10 pm

Did Cockerill and McCallum not have a similar relationship to Sutherland and Cockerill. Sutherland often wasn’t Cockerill’s first choice loosehead but was Scotland’s. McCallum has shown up well enough in his performances for Glasgow so far to suggest he could still live up to his early talent.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2021-22

Postby doedin on Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:13 pm

djphilp wrote:Did Cockerill and McCallum not have a similar relationship to Sutherland and Cockerill. Sutherland often wasn’t Cockerill’s first choice loosehead but was Scotland’s. McCallum has shown up well enough in his performances for Glasgow so far to suggest he could still live up to his early talent.


Anyone else feel that both Berghan and McCallum were taken out of Edinburgh by SRU and moved to Glasgow because there might have been some tensions within the camp? I wouldn't be surprised if we saw one or both back along the M8 in the future.
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