Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby djphilp on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:04 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Carmichael played well against one of the best club sides in the world and ex player of the year, really begs the question why he couldn't get a look in here in our glorious pursuit of 8th place.


Because our coaches haven't a AlainRolland clue :evil:
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:13 pm

djphilp wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Carmichael played well against one of the best club sides in the world and ex player of the year, really begs the question why he couldn't get a look in here in our glorious pursuit of 8th place.


Because our coaches haven't a AlainRolland clue :evil:


Indeed.

One thing about Carmichael I did notice was his clearing at the breakdown was not very good. The same with all our forwards to be honest. Watching Sarries and guys like George Kruis he's like a guided missile with a quick, brual cleanout. Our forwards are more powderpuff in their hit so try and roll the opposition off the ball which slows it all down. Yet more of Scott's excellent coaching and the SRU didn't get Gray signed up to help Scottish players and pro teams so now he is off to Montpellier.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Sonicboom on Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:39 pm

To be fair I don't think the problem has been at lock this season. Carmichael is a good young prospect but with Toolis, Gilchrist, Bresler and Mackenzie ahead of him he is realistically looking at picking us some appearances from the bench when there is injuries which is exactly what has happened.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Wottie on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:19 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Cruden just stepped Carmichael at halfway and try Chiefs.



Retallick ran a nice blocking line on Carmichael, then Cruden threw a forward pass

The Force's lineout has been shocking, otherwise Carmichael has had a good half, he made his tackles and has cleared out well.

I'd like to see him get a run ball in hand, he might surprise a few onlookers.


One other thing, when he stands near Retallick, Carmichael looks wee.


Brief Highlights here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYdOjng38l8
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:03 pm

Sonicboom wrote:To be fair I don't think the problem has been at lock this season. Carmichael is a good young prospect but with Toolis, Gilchrist, Bresler and Mackenzie ahead of him he is realistically looking at picking us some appearances from the bench when there is injuries which is exactly what has happened.


Toolis has played well but Bresler has been injured and McKenzie/Gilchrist a big bag of meh. I think we should have played Carmichael more.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Tichtheid on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:27 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Sonicboom wrote:To be fair I don't think the problem has been at lock this season. Carmichael is a good young prospect but with Toolis, Gilchrist, Bresler and Mackenzie ahead of him he is realistically looking at picking us some appearances from the bench when there is injuries which is exactly what has happened.


Toolis has played well but Bresler has been injured and McKenzie/Gilchrist a big bag of meh. I think we should have played Carmichael more.



That's 20/20 hindsight, there wasn't a torrent of calls for Carmichael to be given a starting shirt throughout the season.
Edinburgh haven't been going well, but McKenzie has been a stalwart until this season, Gilcho was a superstar - you are going to back these guys in a crunch because they are the bread and butter. Same in the back row, Carmichael wasn't going to start ahead of Dents, Bradbury, Coman, Grant, Manu, Ritchie or CDP in the last couple of seasons.

I know it's tempting to beat the coaching team with every stick available, but I don't think this is a legitimate one. Carmichael is a fantastic prospect, he has a bit to learn, hopefully he will get more meaningful gametime with the Force and come back a stronger player for it.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby djphilp on Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:10 am

Having watched the Force V Chiefs game back now, is Carmichael big enough for second row?

He did look small even in comparison to players other than Retallick. At 196cm and 112kg he isn't very big for a lock these days and at that height and weight he's our smallest and lightest lock too :eek:
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Wottie on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:04 am

djphilp wrote:Having watched the Force V Chiefs game back now, is Carmichael big enough for second row?

He did look small even in comparison to players other than Retallick. At 196cm and 112kg he isn't very big for a lock these days and at that height and weight he's our smallest and lightest lock too :eek:


I agree. I've been saying for a while that he looks to have the physical attributes and game for the blind side. No reason why you can't be a good club pro lock at that size but I can't see it washing in the international arena and IMO we need to start developing him as a six now.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:46 am

Wottie wrote:
djphilp wrote:Having watched the Force V Chiefs game back now, is Carmichael big enough for second row?

He did look small even in comparison to players other than Retallick. At 196cm and 112kg he isn't very big for a lock these days and at that height and weight he's our smallest and lightest lock too :eek:


I agree. I've been saying for a while that he looks to have the physical attributes and game for the blind side. No reason why you can't be a good club pro lock at that size but I can't see it washing in the international arena and IMO we need to start developing him as a six now.


Worry about playing well for Edinburgh before the Scotland side of things comes into it.

He's the same size as Tim Swinson and Maro Itoje and a 2/3 cms smaller than George Kruis, AWJ and Launchbury. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a second row at the top of the game at his current size. I've no issue with him moving to 6 if done for the right reasons but I'm not sure he has the dynanism.

He does need to beef up a bit.
Last edited by Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:52 am

Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Sonicboom wrote:To be fair I don't think the problem has been at lock this season. Carmichael is a good young prospect but with Toolis, Gilchrist, Bresler and Mackenzie ahead of him he is realistically looking at picking us some appearances from the bench when there is injuries which is exactly what has happened.


Toolis has played well but Bresler has been injured and McKenzie/Gilchrist a big bag of meh. I think we should have played Carmichael more.



That's 20/20 hindsight, there wasn't a torrent of calls for Carmichael to be given a starting shirt throughout the season.
Edinburgh haven't been going well, but McKenzie has been a stalwart until this season, Gilcho was a superstar - you are going to back these guys in a crunch because they are the bread and butter. Same in the back row, Carmichael wasn't going to start ahead of Dents, Bradbury, Coman, Grant, Manu, Ritchie or CDP in the last couple of seasons.

I know it's tempting to beat the coaching team with every stick available, but I don't think this is a legitimate one. Carmichael is a fantastic prospect, he has a bit to learn, hopefully he will get more meaningful gametime with the Force and come back a stronger player for it.


I read an article in the Scotsman about Seymour going on the Lions and apparently there was only two lines about when he first signed for Glasgow. The point is if people haven't seem someone play they don't know how good they are - I think most liked the little 5 minute bench appearances Carmichael got and would not have minded more time. Just so happens when he's given an hour of rugby he looks good against one of the very best teams in the world. The Chiefs and Brodie Rettalick are in a different world to anything we'll play in the Pro12.

I have no issue with McKenzie but he won't get us out of this mess and Gilchrist was a superstar with was being the operative word. I don't think either of those guys really justify guaranteed selection when you have a good youngster there. But of course Carmichael might not train well - who knows.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:33 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Worry about playing well for Edinburgh before the Scotland side of things comes into it.

He's the same size as Tim Swinson and Maro Itoje and a 2/3 cms smaller than George Kruis, AWJ and Launchbury. There's absolutely no reason he can't be a second row at the top of the game at his current size. I've no issue with him moving to 6 if done for the right reasons but I'm not sure he has the dynanism.

He does need to beef up a bit.



your first sentence is so on the money. Edinburgh and fans need to worry first second and last about what is good for Edinburgh, the Scotland bit will take care of itself if players are good enough.

Second sentence, I'm wary of internet player stats. watching Itoje more this season, he looks taller! anyways, your point is correct, he would not be the tallest lock but that does not stop him being a very good one.

And third sentence, agreed. And perhaps that is why he has not featured more, even perhaps they have been trying to work on his physique and during that felt bench rather than starting were the right options (and yes he could still be playing early after an injury).

Folk really need to get their heads round the fact that not every forward is ready to go at 20 years old. Sometimes its obvious even to poor coaches and sometimes they get it right.
From what we saw yesterday, I'd say he did not let himself down, that not out of place is a wee bit of a stretch (then again playing in another jamesmatthew team and getting hmped is no measure). I couldn't say he was clearly ready to be a starter
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:37 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:I read an article in the Scotsman about Seymour going on the Lions and apparently there was only two lines about when he first signed for Glasgow. The point is if people haven't seem someone play they don't know how good they are


a world of difference between starting a 21/22 year old outside back and a 20 year old lock. Pretty obvious I would have thought.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:02 am

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:I read an article in the Scotsman about Seymour going on the Lions and apparently there was only two lines about when he first signed for Glasgow. The point is if people haven't seem someone play they don't know how good they are


a world of difference between starting a 21/22 year old outside back and a 20 year old lock. Pretty obvious I would have thought.


Minor point - Carmichael is 21 about to turn 22 in the next fortnight, But the point remains, nobody ever really knows how good a player is until they see them play regardless of the position. We have seen Carmichael play and play well against one of the very best club teams in the world, that really does beg the question why he didn't play more for Edinburgh who if we're honest have been terrible for a while now. I don't understand the mitigating factors on this one because other than Toolis it's very hard to say McKenzie and Gilchrist deserve to be selected every week.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby joe soap on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:19 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Minor point - Carmichael is 21 about to turn 22 in the next fortnight, But the point remains, nobody ever really knows how good a player is until they see them play regardless of the position. We have seen Carmichael play and play well against one of the very best club teams in the world, that really does beg the question why he didn't play more for Edinburgh who if we're honest have been terrible for a while now. I don't understand the mitigating factors on this one because other than Toolis it's very hard to say McKenzie and Gilchrist deserve to be selected every week.


my bad on the age, but my points still stand. Young for a lock.

Your point about not knowing how good a player is until you see them play is valid up to a point. Coaches see far more than you, probably have footage from club games as well as past stuff from U20s - and can see how that has improved or not in training. Far more info than a fan has.

I think you way over egg his performance yesterday. Playing very well means a lot more than he did. Again perhaps that would come with more opportunities, but opportunities need to be grasped and demand selection. Doing Ok isn't enough.
I think there is time for Carmichael, but he does need to either or both put on some more muscle and find some more dynamism around the park. I do not see the case to have played him loads more so far, except he might be better than someone else if he gets a chance. That is just not how teams should ever be selected.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby Squad 2017/18

Postby gowrie on Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:04 am

Robbie Fruean linked to us in the Rugby Paper.

Had his injury troubles, but if we can get him, it's an incredibly good signing for us.
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