Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby disco on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:37 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
macdone wrote:Of course our recruitment is p*sh and of course we should compare ourselves to Glasgow - we have the same owner and the same guy recruiting for both teams. We have become the Connacht of Scottish rugby (although they are better than us at recruiting developing players).

It's the recruitment of young \ developing players that's most worrying. We could really use Jack Cosgrove right now. We should have snapped up Vellacot, Eadie and Steele, not to mention Huw Jones. There was a time when we could have signed Duncan Taylor but that ship has sailed - we were too slow.

We have ended up giving contracts to Fraser and Galbraith, neither of whom would have got contracts for a mid table Championship team down south. Meanwhile George Horne and Paddy Kelly are sitting twiddling their thumbs as Glasgow´s 4th choice rather than playing in our first team.

I understand Scott Johnson feels he has to maintain Glasgow´s incredible success. But letting Edinburgh slide won't be good in the long run.


But for the points BigD and others have said we're not on a level playing field - same owner, same money but a world of difference in terms of where the clubs are. If I am a rugby player with no affinity for either team, I go to Glasgow. That is where the comparison falls apart unfortunately, it isn't a level playing field competitively and culturally. Also Johnson isn't the only scout, Rennie has had a huge say in recruitment over there.

Nonsensical point about Galbraith and Fraser compared to Kelly and Horne. Horne is a year older than Fraser and had the sevens, granted, but neither have done anything pro level. Worth noting, Fraser was injured at LS whereas Horne just wasn't picked. Notwithstanding sevens is a different sport and Fraser had the better under20 career. Kelly a year older than Galbraith and the Chiel might know more detail but neither set the Richmond heather alight. There is absolutely no way of knowing how their careers will pan out.

Huw Jones is a tough point as off the back of that deal we got Bennett, I'd rather we had Jones sure but beggars can't be choosers. Vellacot turned Glasgow down and when he's doing well at his boyhood club so very doubtful he'd want to join Edinburgh. He also might not want to commit to Scotland so early? Eadie will be on good coin at Saints as he replaced Picamoles/we didn't need a back row. Not sure when we could've signed Taylor, he's always been rated at Sarries. I agree on Steele and Hutchinson is the other exile I'd seriously look at. But the better ones we've seen like Eastgate there is a question if they want to commit to Scotland so early.

Glasgow got out of their malaise playing these young guns who would do anything to be success. Problem is we play established pros who don't mind losing annually to Italians. Glasgow had a 19 year old for them at 6 and we're talking about why Miller isn't big enough for pro rugby .. That is the difference between the clubs fundamentally. Over there they put faith in young players whereas here it's the opposite.

Agree with much of what you say but on Horne - he played 15 times for London Scottish and was probably one of the most successful loanees we had down there. He is though a late convert to scrum half so while he has more highlight reel stuff I'd say Fraser is a more complete 9. Long-term they will be playing quite different styles. Fraser (and Charlie Shiel) may well be a better fit for what Edinburgh need over the next 2-3 seasons.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:05 pm

disco wrote:Agree with much of what you say but on Horne - he played 15 times for London Scottish and was probably one of the most successful loanees we had down there. He is though a late convert to scrum half so while he has more highlight reel stuff I'd say Fraser is a more complete 9. Long-term they will be playing quite different styles. Fraser (and Charlie Shiel) may well be a better fit for what Edinburgh need over the next 2-3 seasons.


That's fair, I thought from that season he didn't play much. He hasn't put together a body of work for Glasgow yet and it'll be interesting to see how he goes. I agree he's not a fit for what Cockers wants from a 9 - I have high hopes for Fraser considering how good he was for the under20s, Shiel is too inconsistent at this point for me -very fast pass though but it's not accurate enough.

I noticed on the BT Prem highlights that Farndale scored 2 for Watsonians - give him a chance Cockers. Also, Jason Baggot doesn't seem to goalkick for Melrose so maybe limits him with Edinburgh as he'd need to play with SHC (Kinghorn's goalkicking was poor for the under20s.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby doedin on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:41 am

I was initially impressed with Harries when I saw TV highlights but in the flesh he is very one dimensional, on Friday he rarely came in off his wing to look for work etc and was very quiet for a lot of the game. He also coughed up an easy try. Farndale is similarly limited, a good straight line runner who can beat a man 1-on-1 however dont ask him to do some of the other duties. He might as well get a start to see if he can do better than Harries.

Our forwards on Friday did the job required albeit without showing anything exciting however our backs were just plain awful. The Italians had far more imagination and could create an overlap with misspass, 9 or 10 looping round, etc. All we did, after we had scored our couple of tries when we did run good lines, was the usual lateral passing game. We ended up with a man then two man advantage yet still couldn't make the extra men count! Handling was also way below the Italians skill levels, which is a sentence I never thought I would say!

Part of the problem is confidence, part is lack of basic skills but I suspect the main issue is the lack of preparation and coaching so they know almost by rote how to implement the right moves at the right time and then execute them at pace. I suspect it will be a busy week for the squad on the paddock!
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby royc on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:05 pm

doedin on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:41 am

Our forwards on Friday did the job required albeit without showing anything exciting however our backs were just plain awful. The Italians had far more imagination and could create an overlap with misspass, 9 or 10 looping round, etc. All we did, after we had scored our couple of tries when we did run good lines, was the usual lateral passing game. We ended up with a man then two man advantage yet still couldn't make the extra men count! Handling was also way below the Italians skill levels, which is a sentence I never thought I would say!

Part of the problem is confidence, part is lack of basic skills but I suspect the main issue is the lack of preparation and coaching so they know almost by rote how to implement the right moves at the right time and then execute them at pace.

This lack of backs training ground moves is a continuing story from last season. If you cannot break the defensive line, you end up passing laterally and generally going nowhere. At every level of the game, the better rugby schools, the amateur clubs, the Pro clubs, continually practice a whole batch of set-piece moves designed to confuse the defenders and create an opening. The loop is a good one eg Dean at 13 loops round behind Fruean at 12, Fruean passes inside, angle of attack changes and Dean runs at space. The switch ('scissors') achieves the same, the dummy switch catches the oppos out of position, the slice, usually involving 10, 12 and 13, will generally create a hole in the drift defence, and so on. Didn't spot any of these moves from the Edinburgh backs in the first two games and the Benetton one sounds no different. In fact it sounds like Benetton have had the cones out on the training paddock and have been working at their backs set-piece moves successfully, more power to their elbow.

I think Doedin's point looks spot-on: I suspect the main issue is the lack of preparation and coaching so they know almost by rote how to implement the right moves at the right time and then execute them at pace. There is a batch of talented backs there and, with Fruean in the middle with a wealth of experience, we really should be able to execute more than side-to-side passing. The backs have scored some great tries so far but need to go up a gear and develop some of these pretty standard professional skills. Feel the coaches need to get out the cones and the backs training manual and address this skill/preparation shortcoming.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:And you know he didn't get this info how??

I said earlier, with the amount of water boys coming on the pitch and number of times we went to the corner it was a clear tactic, there was water on when the decision to go to the corner was made. Blaming individual players for something which they may have had nothing to do with is a very strange thing to do. If Bradbury is a strong character, and I assume he is, then he may well have taken the advice of others and done his own thing, if we score he made a heroic decision, if not we lose, that's leadership. Hindsight is great, with hingsight we should have gone for goal with 5 mins left and come back looking for the try. However we did look like scoring, so a choice was made.

The positive for him is that if he does make a mistake it wont matter as some folk will find a way to blame Ford!


He'll be better for the experience on Friday, even if it is reinforcing his beliefs that he would do the same thing. He is still really learning his way as a pro and I am confident he will forge his own path as a player and captain. RC and the fans need to accept that there will be ups and downs along the journey. The last 5 minutes shouldn't be used to hide the sides failings in that game which I am sure RC wont let happen.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:25 pm

macdone wrote:Of course our recruitment is p*sh and of course we should compare ourselves to Glasgow - we have the same owner and the same guy recruiting for both teams. We have become the Connacht of Scottish rugby (although they are better than us at recruiting developing players).

It's the recruitment of young \ developing players that's most worrying. We could really use Jack Cosgrove right now. We should have snapped up Vellacot, Eadie and Steele, not to mention Huw Jones. There was a time when we could have signed Duncan Taylor but that ship has sailed - we were too slow.

We have ended up giving contracts to Fraser and Galbraith, neither of whom would have got contracts for a mid table Championship team down south. Meanwhile George Horne and Paddy Kelly are sitting twiddling their thumbs as Glasgow´s 4th choice rather than playing in our first team.

I understand Scott Johnson feels he has to maintain Glasgow´s incredible success. But letting Edinburgh slide won't be good in the long run.


The SRU have given each side pretty similar amounts of money with Glasgow getting slightly more as is understandable, they are challenging to win things. It is not as easy as just making offers to players, the players have to want to come or they need to be given additional incentives i.e more money. As it stands Glasgow are a far more attractive proposition for players. To say otherwise is daft.

Why would Jones sign for us when he'd have a pick of clubs? Why wouldn't SJ want the Scotland 9/10/12/13 (potentially) playing in the same side. Vellacot is highly rated by all at Gloucs, now getting 1st team reps and from recent comments clearly isn't sure he'd chose to play for Scotland. Taylor has developed into the player he has because of the coaching and players he has aroud him, for the last 2-3 years when he has hit peak form there is no chance he'd have left Sarries. And I am pretty sure there is no way the coaches we've had would have had the same impact on him. Horne will get plenty of game time as Glasgows 3rd choice too. It is easy to see why Bristol are a far more attractive to someone like Cosgrove than staying at Edinburgh.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby joe soap on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:26 pm

well it looks like Cockerill's patience has been sorely tested by some experienced players and we will know soon enough who they are since they will be absent against Scarlets. Any bets on who they are? Or if they will still be here next season?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41319162
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:43 pm

It narrows down to, Nel, Ford, Toolis, Bradbury, SHC and Hoyland.

If them I would say Hoyland had the poorest game, although none of the rest distinguished themselves.

I think he is re-enforcing his point about players slackening off for Edinburgh and waiting for Scotland games.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby biffer on Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:14 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:It narrows down to, Nel, Ford, Toolis, Bradbury, SHC and Hoyland.

If them I would say Hoyland had the poorest game, although none of the rest distinguished themselves.

I think he is re-enforcing his point about players slackening off for Edinburgh and waiting for Scotland games.


You can add Hardie and du Prees.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby dolf_lundgren on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:10 pm

I don't think they toured in the summer which he mentioned, would be surprised if it were Hardie, Du Perez tried a few dodgy offloads.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:27 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:It narrows down to, Nel, Ford, Toolis, Bradbury, SHC and Hoyland.

If them I would say Hoyland had the poorest game, although none of the rest distinguished themselves.

I think he is re-enforcing his point about players slackening off for Edinburgh and waiting for Scotland games.


"A  lot of those guys have international experience, some as recently as Scotland's summer tour, so I would expect better from them,"

I take that as he is rounding on the internationals more so than only those involved in the summer. So could include the half backs. Our 9+10 should be controlling these types of games at home, especially with a reasonable platform.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:29 pm

joe soap wrote:Or if they will still be here next season?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41319162


That's an interesting point. RC should already be looking at recruitment but not sure who is all OOC in the summer. Gilchrist and Hardie are. Weir?
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby Crichton Gunner on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:18 pm

Will be interesting to see how many heads roll when the team for Scarlets is announced. Away to the current league champions is a risky fixture to bring in lots of youngsters, but having said what he's said it can't really be just a couple of changes or he loses credibility.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby gunneria on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:36 pm

Hope he keeps to his word! As one who kept attending last season until I found a new hobby of sticking hot needles in my eyes, it is about time some egos and comfort zones were punctured. They're just lucky he missed those games.
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Re: Edinburgh v Treviso Friday 15 Sep 19:35 @ Myreside

Postby BigD163 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:08 pm

Crichton Gunner wrote:Will be interesting to see how many heads roll when the team for Scarlets is announced. Away to the current league champions is a risky fixture to bring in lots of youngsters, but having said what he's said it can't really be just a couple of changes or he loses credibility.


Depends I guess. I am not sure realistically how many changes he can make.

He could start McCallum, Ritchie, Bradbury, Dean, Graham and Kinghorn with Carmichael, Miller/Crosbie and Baggot on the bench. They are all 23 or younger.
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