Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby robdinsdale on Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:58 pm

Tichtheid wrote:Ally Miller started seven games for us last season, four at openside, three at 8. He was generally excellent every time he played for us.
Crosbie stared nine league games, 7 at 7, two at 6.
Boyle had four league appearances from the bench.

Darge got 18 minutes for us against Leinster when we got battered

I think I recall seeing him on our injured list last season for a few weeks.

The point being that a very well-performing Miller and Crosbie were probably keeping Darge out of the side for the few months he was with us, in Miller's case it was for four games at openside


Ally Miller was excellent when he played last season, even at 8, which I wouldn't have said was his position.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:40 pm

It's still a failure in talent identification if the reason Darge didn't play was Miller's form. Look at how it worked out: we had an awful season which cost the coach his job, Miller left and now can't get near the Glasgow team of which Darge is a star. Would Darge have been better than Miller? The form of Darge in the rainbow cup and now Glasgow's team selection suggests yes he would have been.

Let's hope the failure in talent ID is Cockers and Cockers alone and Lawrie did pound the table for him to play. Wouldn't surprise me if Darge was great in training but Cockers total fear of playing a young guy is the reason Glasgow now have Darge. Wouldn't be the only young guy to not get a look in and have good success elsewhere from last year. How many tries does Rowe have in the premiership now?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby joe soap on Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:53 pm

I don't think it was a failure to spot talent. I think it was failure of the SRU indulging Cockerill in stockpiling back row players. There was no way all those guys could get decent game time, there was no sane reason to take the 2 outstanding openside talents from the same U20 side and put them both at the same team, then put them both on full professional contracts with the same team who had so many very good options for the 7 shirt. Too many

Darge has taken his chance and been superb. Boyle is also a potentially prodigious talent but still faces so much competition for game time - and the main window of opportunity for him this season (november, when many were with Scotland or Fiji) has now passed
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby BigD163 on Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:07 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:It's still a failure in talent identification if the reason Darge didn't play was Miller's form. Look at how it worked out: we had an awful season which cost the coach his job, Miller left and now can't get near the Glasgow team of which Darge is a star. Would Darge have been better than Miller? The form of Darge in the rainbow cup and now Glasgow's team selection suggests yes he would have been.

Let's hope the failure in talent ID is Cockers and Cockers alone and Lawrie did pound the table for him to play. Wouldn't surprise me if Darge was great in training but Cockers total fear of playing a young guy is the reason Glasgow now have Darge. Wouldn't be the only young guy to not get a look in and have good success elsewhere from last year. How many tries does Rowe have in the premiership now?


I'm not sure thr SRU would have kept Darge at Edinburgh anyway. Watson was always being retained on decent money and with Ritchie, Croabie and Boyle able to play there too it would make little sense to them to keep Darge here especially when for all Gordon's good work Glasgow were lacking in that position.

Kyle Rowe has been through both pro teams. Sometimes players just click in different environments for whatever reason especially getting regular game time which he wouldn't have got even this season here.. Same as some players enjoyed Cockerills coaching even through many didn't. And Hodge never really gave me much confidence as a backs coach.

With only two pro teams, whenever one is heavily stocked in an area it will lead to players stagnating badly due to lack of game time or abundance of competition. This will lead to guys not meeting their full potential and talent being missed. We just have to hope the coaches keep those numbers as low as possible.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby TheSmidge on Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:37 am

This whole discussion is evidence of the need for a third pro team.

However, the need and the reality, particularly in a financial sense, are two separate things. We probably won't even be able to tell for at least another few years if ER is financially viable on a semi-independent basis, i.e. with the benefit of its "own" stadium and a consistent/rising home support. The financial risk for the SRU to set out for a third pro team is currently stratospheric.

The other thought that occurs is whether we are currently in an upswing in terms of emerging talent. It has been clear for a couple of years that, in certain positions, Scotland is well stocked. I'm thinking principally in the second and back rows, where we have 2 or 3 options for putting out full squads, i.e. around 20 players who could feature in a an international match-day squad in this current RWC cycle without too much of a drop off in quality. You could also argue that we have been well-stocked at scrum-half and now, possibly, fly-half, with an emerging depth in the back three.

There is no guarantee that this depth is sustainable in the medium term, as it would need to be to fill a squad for a third pro team. The pressure is on the SRU to maintain development all the way down through the school and club system and not just rely on the private schools and exiles programme. For example, we have recently moved to Inverness and my son (age 9) is desperate to play. However, Highland RFC's youth sections are all on a Sunday morning and that is a non-starter for us with church commitments. There is currently NO other option for him at all until he gets to high school. It is likely going to be up to me to get something going in his primary school, which will be difficult in COVID times and the minor matter of having no coaching qualifications!
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby BigD163 on Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:51 pm

TheSmidge wrote:This whole discussion is evidence of the need for a third pro team.

However, the need and the reality, particularly in a financial sense, are two separate things. We probably won't even be able to tell for at least another few years if ER is financially viable on a semi-independent basis, i.e. with the benefit of its "own" stadium and a consistent/rising home support. The financial risk for the SRU to set out for a third pro team is currently stratospheric.

The other thought that occurs is whether we are currently in an upswing in terms of emerging talent. It has been clear for a couple of years that, in certain positions, Scotland is well stocked. I'm thinking principally in the second and back rows, where we have 2 or 3 options for putting out full squads, i.e. around 20 players who could feature in a an international match-day squad in this current RWC cycle without too much of a drop off in quality. You could also argue that we have been well-stocked at scrum-half and now, possibly, fly-half, with an emerging depth in the back three.

There is no guarantee that this depth is sustainable in the medium term, as it would need to be to fill a squad for a third pro team. The pressure is on the SRU to maintain development all the way down through the school and club system and not just rely on the private schools and exiles programme. For example, we have recently moved to Inverness and my son (age 9) is desperate to play. However, Highland RFC's youth sections are all on a Sunday morning and that is a non-starter for us with church commitments. There is currently NO other option for him at all until he gets to high school. It is likely going to be up to me to get something going in his primary school, which will be difficult in COVID times and the minor matter of having no coaching qualifications!


Do Highland not have a DO/DO's? My local club is smaller and has a DO out going round primary schools.

I think the SRU is generally doing the right thing by supporting clubs first. It is often clubs that have to help schools in their catchment so it makes sense to support them first.

Realistically, in the majority of places around the county if your son can't play on a Sunday morning then he will get little to no rugby until high school and that's if his high school has a teacher willing to take on rugby or club willing to put coaches into schools. I understand the reasons why Sundays are a no go for you and your family but there will always be days that kids can't do and kids rugby isn't sustainable any other day at clubs.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby TheSmidge on Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:58 pm

BigD163 wrote:
TheSmidge wrote:This whole discussion is evidence of the need for a third pro team.

However, the need and the reality, particularly in a financial sense, are two separate things. We probably won't even be able to tell for at least another few years if ER is financially viable on a semi-independent basis, i.e. with the benefit of its "own" stadium and a consistent/rising home support. The financial risk for the SRU to set out for a third pro team is currently stratospheric.

The other thought that occurs is whether we are currently in an upswing in terms of emerging talent. It has been clear for a couple of years that, in certain positions, Scotland is well stocked. I'm thinking principally in the second and back rows, where we have 2 or 3 options for putting out full squads, i.e. around 20 players who could feature in a an international match-day squad in this current RWC cycle without too much of a drop off in quality. You could also argue that we have been well-stocked at scrum-half and now, possibly, fly-half, with an emerging depth in the back three.

There is no guarantee that this depth is sustainable in the medium term, as it would need to be to fill a squad for a third pro team. The pressure is on the SRU to maintain development all the way down through the school and club system and not just rely on the private schools and exiles programme. For example, we have recently moved to Inverness and my son (age 9) is desperate to play. However, Highland RFC's youth sections are all on a Sunday morning and that is a non-starter for us with church commitments. There is currently NO other option for him at all until he gets to high school. It is likely going to be up to me to get something going in his primary school, which will be difficult in COVID times and the minor matter of having no coaching qualifications!


Do Highland not have a DO/DO's? My local club is smaller and has a DO out going round primary schools.

I think the SRU is generally doing the right thing by supporting clubs first. It is often clubs that have to help schools in their catchment so it makes sense to support them first.

Realistically, in the majority of places around the county if your son can't play on a Sunday morning then he will get little to no rugby until high school and that's if his high school has a teacher willing to take on rugby or club willing to put coaches into schools. I understand the reasons why Sundays are a no go for you and your family but there will always be days that kids can't do and kids rugby isn't sustainable any other day at clubs.


Yes, they do have a DO and that will be one of my ways of looking at it, but COVID has changed so much! However, my concern is an overall one and a Highland DO can't conceivably cover the whole Highland region and all the schools. Fully aware that Sundays are pretty much the only option for any club, but at least if it was the afternoon that would be better for us!

I'm hoping that his interest will last until high school, even if we can't find another outlet before then, and it is a lottery. Having said that, even with perfect conditions at my own high school in the 80s - historically a rugby school, future Scotland coach on the PE staff - there was never any representative teams in all my time there, largely due to the teacher strikes. Again, COVID has changed so much and it could be years before after school activities fully recover across the spectrum of sports.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby JDCSR on Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:16 pm

In regard to a third pro team, London Scottish have come out and said they want to be part of the expanded Super 6 in 22/23. Don't think it's a huge leap from there to third pro team if the transition into the Super 6 is succesful.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoff ... eason/amp/

I think is the only realistic option for a third pro team and the timing would hopefully work quite well, by say the 25/26 season you'd hope that we'd have ridden COVID out, the academies, Exiles program and Super 8 will together be churning out more decent quality players and the financial side will be in place.

Still potentially unlikely but I think there is a best case scenario where it pans out nicely.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby BigD163 on Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:22 pm

TheSmidge wrote:
BigD163 wrote:
TheSmidge wrote:This whole discussion is evidence of the need for a third pro team.

However, the need and the reality, particularly in a financial sense, are two separate things. We probably won't even be able to tell for at least another few years if ER is financially viable on a semi-independent basis, i.e. with the benefit of its "own" stadium and a consistent/rising home support. The financial risk for the SRU to set out for a third pro team is currently stratospheric.

The other thought that occurs is whether we are currently in an upswing in terms of emerging talent. It has been clear for a couple of years that, in certain positions, Scotland is well stocked. I'm thinking principally in the second and back rows, where we have 2 or 3 options for putting out full squads, i.e. around 20 players who could feature in a an international match-day squad in this current RWC cycle without too much of a drop off in quality. You could also argue that we have been well-stocked at scrum-half and now, possibly, fly-half, with an emerging depth in the back three.

There is no guarantee that this depth is sustainable in the medium term, as it would need to be to fill a squad for a third pro team. The pressure is on the SRU to maintain development all the way down through the school and club system and not just rely on the private schools and exiles programme. For example, we have recently moved to Inverness and my son (age 9) is desperate to play. However, Highland RFC's youth sections are all on a Sunday morning and that is a non-starter for us with church commitments. There is currently NO other option for him at all until he gets to high school. It is likely going to be up to me to get something going in his primary school, which will be difficult in COVID times and the minor matter of having no coaching qualifications!


Do Highland not have a DO/DO's? My local club is smaller and has a DO out going round primary schools.

I think the SRU is generally doing the right thing by supporting clubs first. It is often clubs that have to help schools in their catchment so it makes sense to support them first.

Realistically, in the majority of places around the county if your son can't play on a Sunday morning then he will get little to no rugby until high school and that's if his high school has a teacher willing to take on rugby or club willing to put coaches into schools. I understand the reasons why Sundays are a no go for you and your family but there will always be days that kids can't do and kids rugby isn't sustainable any other day at clubs.


Yes, they do have a DO and that will be one of my ways of looking at it, but COVID has changed so much! However, my concern is an overall one and a Highland DO can't conceivably cover the whole Highland region and all the schools. Fully aware that Sundays are pretty much the only option for any club, but at least if it was the afternoon that would be better for us!.


Was speaking to a mate who has worked in DO circles. Highland also now have an assistant DO. Would definitely recommend trying to connect the school to them, my sons school in Fife did similar with tennis and now a few of the kids play.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:15 am

JDCSR wrote:In regard to a third pro team, London Scottish have come out and said they want to be part of the expanded Super 6 in 22/23. Don't think it's a huge leap from there to third pro team if the transition into the Super 6 is succesful.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoff ... eason/amp/

I think is the only realistic option for a third pro team and the timing would hopefully work quite well, by say the 25/26 season you'd hope that we'd have ridden COVID out, the academies, Exiles program and Super 8 will together be churning out more decent quality players and the financial side will be in place.

Still potentially unlikely but I think there is a best case scenario where it pans out nicely.


The problem with LS is the championship is in managed decline by the RFU; hence why they'll allow the involvement of LS in a Scottish competition and essentially outwith RFU funding and control. (And why LS are again happy for increased SRU involvement). So if the RFU did allow LS to compete it would be in a progressively weaker Championship with less funding and no promotion. And they'd never let them into the prem either. So LS isn't a great option.

Equally there's no cash or location for it in Scotland.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby The Chiel on Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:28 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
JDCSR wrote:In regard to a third pro team, London Scottish have come out and said they want to be part of the expanded Super 6 in 22/23. Don't think it's a huge leap from there to third pro team if the transition into the Super 6 is succesful.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoff ... eason/amp/

I think is the only realistic option for a third pro team and the timing would hopefully work quite well, by say the 25/26 season you'd hope that we'd have ridden COVID out, the academies, Exiles program and Super 8 will together be churning out more decent quality players and the financial side will be in place.

Still potentially unlikely but I think there is a best case scenario where it pans out nicely.


The problem with LS is the championship is in managed decline by the RFU; hence why they'll allow the involvement of LS in a Scottish competition and essentially outwith RFU funding and control. (And why LS are again happy for increased SRU involvement). So if the RFU did allow LS to compete it would be in a progressively weaker Championship with less funding and no promotion. And they'd never let them into the prem either. So LS isn't a great option.

Equally there's no cash or location for it in Scotland.


Broadly agree re LS. Just to be be clear the pro ( semi pro ) side of LS - London Scottish International Limited, ( LSIL ) is a different entity to the LS Lions, currently in step nine but likely to move up if the season completes, other mens teams, ladies, junior & minis, and these teams will stay under RFU jurisdiction. So however unlikely, technically LS still have the same chance as any other club. But it's LSIL which will it appears go to the Super 8.

The other Championship issue is ground capacity. Scottish have no options that fit the Premiership. Indeed there is no side outside the Premiership with a ground that fits Premiership criteria other than Darlington Mowden Park in Nat 1 ( step three ), who share with the football team. I assume Ealing have a stadium plan for next season ( but we all remember London Welsh bankrupting themselves ), and Doncaster could potentially move in with their local football team. The Stadium for Cornwall is now going to be 6000 capacity on an interim basis and it still hasn't even started, and Jersey have no realistic opportunity to improve their ground unless (as with all Championship teams ) a sugar daddy emerges.

Conor O'Shea is leading an RFU review of the Championship - not clear when the report will be finished. As FKN says, the view is that the Championship will reduce in size, and probably funding, although it's already very low. Can't remember if I put it on here or the Glasgow forum, but as an indication of the not so level Championship / sugar daddy financial playing field, Ealing's DoR is on a higher salary than LS' annual playing budget.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby JDCSR on Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:15 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
JDCSR wrote:In regard to a third pro team, London Scottish have come out and said they want to be part of the expanded Super 6 in 22/23. Don't think it's a huge leap from there to third pro team if the transition into the Super 6 is succesful.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoff ... eason/amp/

I think is the only realistic option for a third pro team and the timing would hopefully work quite well, by say the 25/26 season you'd hope that we'd have ridden COVID out, the academies, Exiles program and Super 8 will together be churning out more decent quality players and the financial side will be in place.

Still potentially unlikely but I think there is a best case scenario where it pans out nicely.


The problem with LS is the championship is in managed decline by the RFU; hence why they'll allow the involvement of LS in a Scottish competition and essentially outwith RFU funding and control. (And why LS are again happy for increased SRU involvement). So if the RFU did allow LS to compete it would be in a progressively weaker Championship with less funding and no promotion. And they'd never let them into the prem either. So LS isn't a great option.

Equally there's no cash or location for it in Scotland.


LS won't be a third pro team in the Championship they'll be in whatever incarnation of the URC we've got at the time. RFU will be a non factor as they're already happy that LS Lions fulfill the amateur requirements for representation.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:38 pm

JDCSR wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
JDCSR wrote:In regard to a third pro team, London Scottish have come out and said they want to be part of the expanded Super 6 in 22/23. Don't think it's a huge leap from there to third pro team if the transition into the Super 6 is succesful.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoff ... eason/amp/

I think is the only realistic option for a third pro team and the timing would hopefully work quite well, by say the 25/26 season you'd hope that we'd have ridden COVID out, the academies, Exiles program and Super 8 will together be churning out more decent quality players and the financial side will be in place.

Still potentially unlikely but I think there is a best case scenario where it pans out nicely.


The problem with LS is the championship is in managed decline by the RFU; hence why they'll allow the involvement of LS in a Scottish competition and essentially outwith RFU funding and control. (And why LS are again happy for increased SRU involvement). So if the RFU did allow LS to compete it would be in a progressively weaker Championship with less funding and no promotion. And they'd never let them into the prem either. So LS isn't a great option.

Equally there's no cash or location for it in Scotland.


LS won't be a third pro team in the Championship they'll be in whatever incarnation of the URC we've got at the time. RFU will be a non factor as they're already happy that LS Lions fulfill the amateur requirements for representation.


Ah that would be great. I think the problem then is the URC would need another team and structure though. Less of a hurdle but still a problem.
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby Trophyhunter on Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:31 pm

The funding problem is bound to be compounded by the impact of the Pandemic not helped by the Scottish Government’s decision to effective ban spectators from the 1872. Disproportionate imo . Puzzled by that one given all controls and mitigation via Vaccine passports and apparent mild effects of Omnicrom . We still have nightclubs open !! ?
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Re: Edinburgh Rugby FPs & Others

Postby doedin on Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:01 pm

Night-clubs shut for 3 weeks!
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