v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby royc on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:16 pm

Apart from all the obvious and commented-upon downsides to our performance, two aspects of the game stood out for me.

First, why the heck did we not take the points from some of these endless penalties to keep the scoreline ticking over? Jaco has I reckon an 80%+ success rate, so it's an obvious route. Just two pens and we'd have won that game. Seems to me the game plan for the second half was wrong - let the forwards take it up in an arm wrestle and get us a TBP, overlooking that Kings are pretty good at scoring on the breakout, as Warriors and others have found and as inevitably happened.

Two, what has happened to the backs to produce such a limp display? Agree with this:

doedin wrote: ...even with a dodgy ref we should have won that easily. Front row dominated and we had 80+% of possession and territory in 2nd half. However it is patently clear that no-one, including the players, had any faith in our backs. We continue to have no idea about what to do when in the opposes red zone, no set moves, no plays and a lack of skills. Without our back 3 we have no attacking edge and no threat across the backs.


Our backs play relies on the individual skills (on a good day) of a few standout players, rather than an organised scheme of attack involving each and all playing their part. Take away the three star backs, as on Saturday, and we promptly become mince. This for me is a core coaching issue: we will never have 10 standout players, each bringing inherent audacious skills with them. We will have some good, some potentially good, some maybe not so good. Yes, we need to upskill them as far as we can, but far more necessary is to evolve a tactical style and plays that mean the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts.

Nothing in the backs play so far leads me to believe that Hodge has the skills or experience to do that I'm afraid. There are several specialist attack coaches around, who understand the 'variable geometry' of the midfield attack, who write about the many plays the backs need to train for, and who go out to clubs and show them how to do it, in the same way as Ritchie Grey does as a breakdown consultant. I think we need to avail ourselves of one such ASAP, as a few more performances like that and our chances of reaching the playoffs will be kaput.
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby biffer on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm

dolf_lundgren wrote:Will that replace your "I shot JR" tshirt?

You will need to get permission form Cockers first but I think he will like it!


Blast! My secret identity is uncovered!

Image
Don't mention Rory Hutton. I did once but I think I got away with it.
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby Tichtheid on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:35 pm

royc wrote:
Our backs play relies on the individual skills (on a good day) of a few standout players, rather than an organised scheme of attack involving each and all playing their part. Take away the three star backs, as on Saturday, and we promptly become mince. This for me is a core coaching issue: we will never have 10 standout players, each bringing inherent audacious skills with them. We will have some good, some potentially good, some maybe not so good. Yes, we need to upskill them as far as we can, but far more necessary is to evolve a tactical style and plays that mean the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts.

Nothing in the backs play so far leads me to believe that Hodge has the skills or experience to do that I'm afraid. There are several specialist attack coaches around, who understand the 'variable geometry' of the midfield attack, who write about the many plays the backs need to train for, and who go out to clubs and show them how to do it, in the same way as Ritchie Grey does as a breakdown consultant. I think we need to avail ourselves of one such ASAP, as a few more performances like that and our chances of reaching the playoffs will be kaput.




Whilst I largely agree with what you say, Roy, as far as the bit in bold goes we have that up front, we can put out two full packs (assuming no injuries) who can compete without there being a huge drop off and the ones coming in to the first choice 8 don't leave us shorthanded, perhaps a little less so at lock, but overall I think that is the case.
Glasgow have that in their backs.

In Shiel we potentially have that at scrum half, JJ and Dean have been good in recent weeks and although there were shouts that Scott and Bennett will find it tough getting back in after the European Cup exploits, I still think they are first choices.

The back three are way out in front of the back ups.

I still can't fathom why we went for the corner after the ref had finally given the Kings front row a warning, perhaps McKenzie just didn't think it was likely he'd card them, they had been infringing all afternoon with impunity.

We butchered three clear chances - Taylor dropping the ball over the line, Mata picking up from a scrum accelerating out of control and Ceccerelli failing to touch down whilst over the line.
These things happen but they happen to us often, far too often.

We went at it like a bull at a gate, we were going to blow them away up front and that was that. I wish we could have had a wide shot during the build up to Ceccerelli getting held up, there must have been space out wide but we just refused to use it
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:45 pm

It really is worth remembering when Bennett returned last year JJ started the big games. We can't rely on him and Scott to solve the problems, Scott didn't earlier in the season.

Better systems and decision making required. Also a lot of times on Saturday backs could not catch and pass at a high standard.
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby Weegie on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:43 pm

One point worth making is that I am surprised this game was played during the day. Normal daytime temperatures there at this time of year are high 20s / low thirties and I'd imagine people not used to that will find it sapping. It'll drop 5 or 6 degrees in the evening.
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby royc on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:40 pm

Tichtheid wrote:
royc wrote:
Whilst I largely agree with what you say, Roy, as far as the bit in bold goes we have that up front, we can put out two full packs (assuming no injuries) who can compete without there being a huge drop off and the ones coming in to the first choice 8 don't leave us shorthanded, perhaps a little less so at lock, but overall I think that is the case.
Glasgow have that in their backs.

In Shiel we potentially have that at scrum half, JJ and Dean have been good in recent weeks and although there were shouts that Scott and Bennett will find it tough getting back in after the European Cup exploits, I still think they are first choices.


Oh yes, we are strong up front, could put out two packs and either would comfortably do Kings in (and probably Weegies too :lol: ) My point though was specifically about the backs attack. You mention Shiel, Scott and Bennett, who I agree should all add to our strength and depth.

But the point of my poorly-explained thesis was really the reverse of that:

If our backs are not awash with inherent, audacious individual skills - which apart from a couple of stars, they are not and likely never will be on the current budget - then expecting any kind of match-winning attacking performance based on individual skills is not a plausible scenario, as indeed we keep seeing. Therefore one must compensate for lack of individual brilliance by developing a toolbox of set back plays - tricks if you like - that every back who can catch a ball can play a useful part in.

There are probably a dozen easy ones and as many again that specialist backs coaches know. They all need work and practice, because they rely on players being in the right place at the right time and ready for split-second moves, such as reverse passes, switches, changes of running angles. But nothing that can't be taught to an average Pro rugby player.

Haven't seen any sign of anything like that at Embra so far (and not much under Toonie either to be fair, he also seems to rely on individual flair rather than drilled back plays). Hence would like to see a specialist attack coach-consultant come in and do a bit of work with the backs and breakaway forwards in particular.
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby Pitfitter446 on Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:29 pm

So all we lack is method and cohesion? Why didn’t you say before. :lol:
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Re: v Kings Saturday 26th 3.15pm

Postby Tichtheid on Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:55 pm

royc wrote:
If our backs are not awash with inherent, audacious individual skills - which apart from a couple of stars, they are not and likely never will be on the current budget - then expecting any kind of match-winning attacking performance based on individual skills is not a plausible scenario, as indeed we keep seeing. Therefore one must compensate for lack of individual brilliance by developing a toolbox of set back plays - tricks if you like - that every back who can catch a ball can play a useful part in.

There are probably a dozen easy ones and as many again that specialist backs coaches know. They all need work and practice, because they rely on players being in the right place at the right time and ready for split-second moves, such as reverse passes, switches, changes of running angles. But nothing that can't be taught to an average Pro rugby player.

Haven't seen any sign of anything like that at Embra so far (and not much under Toonie either to be fair, he also seems to rely on individual flair rather than drilled back plays). Hence would like to see a specialist attack coach-consultant come in and do a bit of work with the backs and breakaway forwards in particular.



I think that's all fair - I keep thinking back to Leinster coming to Murrayfield a few years ago, it was one of the last fixtures of the season and they had a second string team out and just cut us to ribbons with moves straight off the training pitch, whether off the top of the lineout or from elsewhere, it was an exhibition of top class coaching and players sticking to their tasks and executing them well.
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