Edinburgh squad 2020-21

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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Tichtheid on Mon May 03, 2021 10:23 pm

The Feral Goat wrote:Cockerill saying sutherland going nowhere again today, although not that there has not been an approach.

https://www.theoffsideline.com/richard- ... ssion=true

Also McInally back in full training

Currie injured

Younger players likely to feature in 1872



Shame about Currie, he really did look the part against Zebre, but hopefully he'll be getting his chance next season.

Good news otherwise
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby robdinsdale on Tue May 04, 2021 7:33 am

Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
To give this context: locks 2/6 33% (3/7 Carmichael hasn't been announced yet) backrows: Muncaster left for schooling so we can say developed in England but you forgot Boyle but we then have 4/9 (44%) and props 1/7 which is 15% and I presume one to be signed to replace Sutherland which could be Gunn I guess and give us 2/8. The development of young Scottish props in Scotland has been a clear failure and nobody is doing anything about it.

There is an obvious point to giving young players gametime. That point being to improve their skills and abilities. The reason we don't play them is the SRU are too busy signing project players or second rate 25 year old plus props from elsewhere and coaches obviously pick guys to win games.



Carmichael hasn't been announced yet, neither has McCallum or Sutherland.

I didn't forget Boyle, but I classed him as academy as he is only just barely out of it.

The second paragraph is a bit bizzare, the SRU are, and I quote, "too busy signing project players or second rate 25 year old plus props from elsewhere "?

I understand the frustration, but to suggest the SRU want anything other than a successful Edinburgh and Glasgow side with a flow of Scottish players for the national team is just plain wrong.

The reason Cockerill plays guys like Venter is because, and I can only really hazzard a guess here, he feels he has a better chance of winning games with these guys than the Scottish guys that he has at his disposal.

It's not an easy position to fill, have a look at France's Top 14 and see how many Georgians or Italians or Argentinians or Polynesians are on their clubs' books, despite all their money and thousands of players and despite their legislation limiting foreign players, they still have lots of foreign props.

We have two teams and have only just set up the Super 6, it's had one season and then was subject to Covid.


Hopefully the Super 6 will be able to give young props in particular a decent standard of gametime so that they are better prepared when they step up to the pro game. I have no great desire to watch Edinburgh get minced in the scrum by mediocre Welsh front rows in the interests of development. I still remember that Traynor/Gilding front row we had :cry:
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue May 04, 2021 10:27 am

Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
To give this context: locks 2/6 33% (3/7 Carmichael hasn't been announced yet) backrows: Muncaster left for schooling so we can say developed in England but you forgot Boyle but we then have 4/9 (44%) and props 1/7 which is 15% and I presume one to be signed to replace Sutherland which could be Gunn I guess and give us 2/8. The development of young Scottish props in Scotland has been a clear failure and nobody is doing anything about it.

There is an obvious point to giving young players gametime. That point being to improve their skills and abilities. The reason we don't play them is the SRU are too busy signing project players or second rate 25 year old plus props from elsewhere and coaches obviously pick guys to win games.



Carmichael hasn't been announced yet, neither has McCallum or Sutherland.

I didn't forget Boyle, but I classed him as academy as he is only just barely out of it.

The second paragraph is a bit bizzare, the SRU are, and I quote, "too busy signing project players or second rate 25 year old plus props from elsewhere "?

I understand the frustration, but to suggest the SRU want anything other than a successful Edinburgh and Glasgow side with a flow of Scottish players for the national team is just plain wrong.

The reason Cockerill plays guys like Venter is because, and I can only really hazzard a guess here, he feels he has a better chance of winning games with these guys than the Scottish guys that he has at his disposal.

It's not an easy position to fill, have a look at France's Top 14 and see how many Georgians or Italians or Argentinians or Polynesians are on their clubs' books, despite all their money and thousands of players and despite their legislation limiting foreign players, they still have lots of foreign props.

We have two teams and have only just set up the Super 6, it's had one season and then was subject to Covid.


I am suggesting that their strategy is badly wrong. Not that they don't want a flow of players into the national team. The SRU, Glasgow and Edinburgh cannot develop front rowers consistently to save themselves and we have become reliant on foreign props both domestically and internationally. It is not good enough and it is not sustainable especially with 5 year residency.

You'll see far more club developed props than externally developed props in France.
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Tichtheid on Tue May 04, 2021 11:45 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
Tichtheid wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
To give this context: locks 2/6 33% (3/7 Carmichael hasn't been announced yet) backrows: Muncaster left for schooling so we can say developed in England but you forgot Boyle but we then have 4/9 (44%) and props 1/7 which is 15% and I presume one to be signed to replace Sutherland which could be Gunn I guess and give us 2/8. The development of young Scottish props in Scotland has been a clear failure and nobody is doing anything about it.

There is an obvious point to giving young players gametime. That point being to improve their skills and abilities. The reason we don't play them is the SRU are too busy signing project players or second rate 25 year old plus props from elsewhere and coaches obviously pick guys to win games.



Carmichael hasn't been announced yet, neither has McCallum or Sutherland.

I didn't forget Boyle, but I classed him as academy as he is only just barely out of it.

The second paragraph is a bit bizzare, the SRU are, and I quote, "too busy signing project players or second rate 25 year old plus props from elsewhere "?

I understand the frustration, but to suggest the SRU want anything other than a successful Edinburgh and Glasgow side with a flow of Scottish players for the national team is just plain wrong.

The reason Cockerill plays guys like Venter is because, and I can only really hazzard a guess here, he feels he has a better chance of winning games with these guys than the Scottish guys that he has at his disposal.

It's not an easy position to fill, have a look at France's Top 14 and see how many Georgians or Italians or Argentinians or Polynesians are on their clubs' books, despite all their money and thousands of players and despite their legislation limiting foreign players, they still have lots of foreign props.

We have two teams and have only just set up the Super 6, it's had one season and then was subject to Covid.


I am suggesting that their strategy is badly wrong. Not that they don't want a flow of players into the national team. The SRU, Glasgow and Edinburgh cannot develop front rowers consistently to save themselves and we have become reliant on foreign props both domestically and internationally. It is not good enough and it is not sustainable especially with 5 year residency.

You'll see far more club developed props than externally developed props in France.


There are 30 professional clubs in France, the third tier has some big names from the past like Dax and Narbonne, I don't know the level of professionalism in that third tier, but if they gain promotion they would be full time.
France has a very good academy system in place as well as large numbers of players.


In Scotland it has taken this long to realise that the club game is just not producing players or preparing them for professional rugby, and the SRU have been fought tooth and nail by the clubs at every turn, just about.

The fact that Dodson has come across as autocratic sometimes is because someone had to. I'm not going to say that the Super 6 will solve all the problems, but it's a step in the right direction.
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue May 04, 2021 12:14 pm

Hanging our hat on the super 6 is a strategic mistake. I like the concept and I want it to succeed but it'll take a few years to get up and running. Also I agree with Gordon Reid I don't see how it will develop top quality front rows.

Young props need professional gametime. It's very chicken and egg we can't play them as they get bested by guys with experience so we just won't play them. There's a reason Scotland have produced so few international standard props. And it is they are overlooked for Glasgow and Edinburgh for some second rate older foreign prop.
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby joe soap on Tue May 04, 2021 5:06 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Hanging our hat on the super 6 is a strategic mistake. I like the concept and I want it to succeed but it'll take a few years to get up and running. Also I agree with Gordon Reid I don't see how it will develop top quality front rows.

Young props need professional gametime. It's very chicken and egg we can't play them as they get bested by guys with experience so we just won't play them. There's a reason Scotland have produced so few international standard props. And it is they are overlooked for Glasgow and Edinburgh for some second rate older foreign prop.


at U20 I think we have had loads of prop prospects in the last 5 or 6 years. Unsurprisingly not all, not (nearly) enough make the grade. There is a problem, yes, but its a complex one as touched on by yourself and Tichtheid.

we can't just play them unless good enough. And we can't develop them all at the 2 pro teams - how many spaces can we fill with players who might make it? Where does the next academy prospect go if the queue is already full?
The Super 6 is the answer. Reid was talking after a few games where he had not been exactly troubled. Hardly a surprise but a very rash statement in a competition that has to grow and get better, that has to be the equivalent of the Eng Championship, or the AIL or the Welsh Premiership or Pro D2 or Mitre Cup or whatever. We can't just say oh lend them to a championship team any more than we can say just play Scots and they will learn. For every scot prop we want to lend to the championship there are 5 or 10 from the Eng Premiership in the same boat, and the championship also want performers not novices. Hence Super 6 is the only answer

That said, one or two of the younger props here and at Glasgow were good enough to be capped and not look out of place; either they have fallen badly or been treated badly
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Tue May 04, 2021 8:23 pm

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:Hanging our hat on the super 6 is a strategic mistake. I like the concept and I want it to succeed but it'll take a few years to get up and running. Also I agree with Gordon Reid I don't see how it will develop top quality front rows.

Young props need professional gametime. It's very chicken and egg we can't play them as they get bested by guys with experience so we just won't play them. There's a reason Scotland have produced so few international standard props. And it is they are overlooked for Glasgow and Edinburgh for some second rate older foreign prop.


at U20 I think we have had loads of prop prospects in the last 5 or 6 years. Unsurprisingly not all, not (nearly) enough make the grade. There is a problem, yes, but its a complex one as touched on by yourself and Tichtheid.

we can't just play them unless good enough. And we can't develop them all at the 2 pro teams - how many spaces can we fill with players who might make it? Where does the next academy prospect go if the queue is already full?
The Super 6 is the answer. Reid was talking after a few games where he had not been exactly troubled. Hardly a surprise but a very rash statement in a competition that has to grow and get better, that has to be the equivalent of the Eng Championship, or the AIL or the Welsh Premiership or Pro D2 or Mitre Cup or whatever. We can't just say oh lend them to a championship team any more than we can say just play Scots and they will learn. For every scot prop we want to lend to the championship there are 5 or 10 from the Eng Premiership in the same boat, and the championship also want performers not novices. Hence Super 6 is the only answer

That said, one or two of the younger props here and at Glasgow were good enough to be capped and not look out of place; either they have fallen badly or been treated badly


Yes a number of props have been coached very poorly. Bhatti being one - not fancied by Rennie so signed for Edinburgh (doesn't seem like Cockers ever wanted him) then a few injuries and Bhatti kept Kebble out the final team. Then found himself in the Edinburgh wilderness. Then Seuili joined who is good but forced Bhatti to Edinburgh is good but it's no good for Scottish rugby a very competent prop lost 2 years of his careers. D'Arcy Rae was promising and played some decent games but it was decided the Nuke who was dreadful and now Pieretto who looks average at best. Here we've had McCallum who was promising had some legit good games but we decided on signing a load of NSQs. There comes a point when the SRU have to say "no you're not signing Nuke/Seiuli/Atalifo" they aren't very good and they aren't good for Scottish rugby.

The problem with the super6 is the guys you'll play will be academy lads and the semi pros (recently dropped by the academies or really love the game and can handle the work commitments). That isn't going to be good enough to then play professional prop. The standard is definitely higher than the old Premiership but nowhere near championship levels. Super 6 teams were getting absolutely banjoed by Falcons A. It'll take a number of years, it is our best hope but it's a long way off being a good enough conveyer belt. A long long way off.

The solution is to give them Pro14 or challenge cup minutes. The young guys are not quality professionals yet. And I can guarantee you they never will be unless they are given experience. The reason every other position aside from prop is played younger is because scrum penalties/lineout. The problem only gets fixed with gametime now. Not gametime in 3 years when the super6 might be a quality rugby league or we've sent them to Old Glory. Now!
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby disco on Tue May 04, 2021 10:17 pm

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Yes a number of props have been coached very poorly. Bhatti being one - not fancied by Rennie so signed for Edinburgh (doesn't seem like Cockers ever wanted him) then a few injuries and Bhatti kept Kebble out the final team. Then found himself in the Edinburgh wilderness. Then Seuili joined who is good but forced Bhatti to Edinburgh is good but it's no good for Scottish rugby a very competent prop lost 2 years of his careers. D'Arcy Rae was promising and played some decent games but it was decided the Nuke who was dreadful and now Pieretto who looks average at best. Here we've had McCallum who was promising had some legit good games but we decided on signing a load of NSQs. There comes a point when the SRU have to say "no you're not signing Nuke/Seiuli/Atalifo" they aren't very good and they aren't good for Scottish rugby.

The problem with the super6 is the guys you'll play will be academy lads and the semi pros (recently dropped by the academies or really love the game and can handle the work commitments). That isn't going to be good enough to then play professional prop. The standard is definitely higher than the old Premiership but nowhere near championship levels. Super 6 teams were getting absolutely banjoed by Falcons A. It'll take a number of years, it is our best hope but it's a long way off being a good enough conveyer belt. A long long way off.

The solution is to give them Pro14 or challenge cup minutes. The young guys are not quality professionals yet. And I can guarantee you they never will be unless they are given experience. The reason every other position aside from prop is played younger is because scrum penalties/lineout. The problem only gets fixed with gametime now. Not gametime in 3 years when the super6 might be a quality rugby league or we've sent them to Old Glory. Now!

It's an interesting point and this is an ongoing issue but some of the bolded hyperbole rather weakens your argument. You don't have to paint the guys brought in as totally useless to make the point. These players were clearly better at the time than the alternatives, the question is one of short-term v long-term.

It's not so much of an issue for Scotland as they only need a relatively small number of props to come through. One freak like Zander Fagerson can eat up an awful lot of caps and minutes over an extended number of years. It's more of a problem for Glasgow and Edinburgh who probably need 8-10 props on each side of the scrum between them. I just don't see us as a nation producing enough to fill somewhere between 16 and 20 slots in the pro teams each season (plus a handful playing outside Scotland) without casting the net wide.

Rae's had 7 seasons, 72 games, 27 starts, 2,600+ minutes. McCallum's had 5 seasons, 50 games, 21 starts, 1,700+ minutes. There's more than enough data there on what they can do and where their ceiling might be to justify where they stand in the depth chart.
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby joe soap on Wed May 05, 2021 9:30 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:

The problem with the super6 is the guys you'll play will be academy lads and the semi pros (recently dropped by the academies or really love the game and can handle the work commitments). That isn't going to be good enough to then play professional prop. The standard is definitely higher than the old Premiership but nowhere near championship levels. Super 6 teams were getting absolutely banjoed by Falcons A. It'll take a number of years, it is our best hope but it's a long way off being a good enough conveyer belt. A long long way off.

The solution is to give them Pro14 or challenge cup minutes. The young guys are not quality professionals yet. And I can guarantee you they never will be unless they are given experience. The reason every other position aside from prop is played younger is because scrum penalties/lineout. The problem only gets fixed with gametime now. Not gametime in 3 years when the super6 might be a quality rugby league or we've sent them to Old Glory. Now!



sorry, what you are proposing is not going to work. Its part of why we are where we are. Each pro side will have about 4 props either side plus academy players. Academy players cannot be played unless really exceptional for their own safety, most seasons there will not be an exceptional academy prop. Same everywhere. So how many of those 4 props either side are youngsters? At the most risky, 2. And of those its likely at least one won't make it. Say one does. what happens the following season? Do you release a senior prop to make way for another kid? Its a bottleneck and enough kids are not going to be able to get enough game time, and no-one thinks a revolving door for senior props is a great idea.

Both pro teams and Scotland need more depth, the only way to get that is more players playing at a better level. Ans the only ways to get that is either super 6 or keep going as we are and cross fingers. Writing it off after half a season is daft
Yes, it might take a few seasons, but it is a strategy not short term elastoplast. We need to give it time and support. It is a sensible way to go. Its obvious if it fails we will be back to where we are now, hand to mouth, a development bottleneck, lacking depth and going outside Scotland every time we have an injury, never mind for first picks
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Wed May 05, 2021 9:44 am

Safety reasons would mean no live scrums in training and instead of academy props being subbed on in games we'd go 14 men uncontested. Fagerson and McCallum both played games when very young. Fagerson I think debuted at 18! It is not safety reasons. The academy props we have (maybe Lamberton) aside are 20 years old or over. The academy props Glasgow have are as old as 22.

I'm not writing it off but the Super6 won't work for years at best. Those waiting for the super6 to cure all for Scottish rugby will be disappointed. It's a step in the right direction but if young players aren't given professional experience they will never be good professionals. Semi pro/academy props are fine but you have the same problem when the prop with 3 years of semi pro/training experience then up against a knarled fully pro prop with 7 years experience. They'll still need a lot of pro games to be of any sort of standard. Connacht's reserve props are going to be of a much higher standard than anyone they come across in the super 6.
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby joe soap on Fri May 07, 2021 9:19 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:Safety reasons would mean no live scrums in training and instead of academy props being subbed on in games we'd go 14 men uncontested. Fagerson and McCallum both played games when very young. Fagerson I think debuted at 18! It is not safety reasons. The academy props we have (maybe Lamberton) aside are 20 years old or over. The academy props Glasgow have are as old as 22.


Fagerson and even McCallum were age grade freaks though. There is a serious safety issue. In training the opponent can know when to back off or be told to - And the pother lad you mention, Lambert, was kept in cotton wool all season exactly because they thought his scrumming wasn't nearly up to it. Glasgow loaned in a nonentity from Scarlets as a result. Lambert finally got his chance a couple of weeks back, after the coaches were ready to risk him
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby joe soap on Fri May 07, 2021 9:30 am

Friday Knight Lights wrote:
I'm not writing it off but the Super6 won't work for years at best. Those waiting for the super6 to cure all for Scottish rugby will be disappointed. It's a step in the right direction but if young players aren't given professional experience they will never be good professionals. Semi pro/academy props are fine but you have the same problem when the prop with 3 years of semi pro/training experience then up against a knarled fully pro prop with 7 years experience. They'll still need a lot of pro games to be of any sort of standard. Connacht's reserve props are going to be of a much higher standard than anyone they come across in the super 6.



we can go round in circles on this. All young players need game time, no argument there. Connacht props can play in the AIL where we know from when our clubs were in the B&I cup the standard was much higher than the old premiership here. That is what S6 will try to create. Irish teams also play each other in A team games. We don't, and only have 2 teams to play each other - but if S6 is running a better chance of being able to field A teams as we can call up semi pros better than amateurs.

S6 won't go sky high level quickly, not arguing otherwise. But it is the only way I can see to provide better depth. Going along as we are means we never develop depth, we cross fingers that someone else somewhere else will develop it for us, or import it. What you propose is for me just a modification of that, except that younger guys get more exposed - but only one or two a season which might give the odd win but is much more likely to mean you find the prop doesn't make it, results suffer, and we still don't have any depth.

The bottleneck for opportunities is where the focus needs to be strategically, the pro coaches need to get on with picking from who is available in the squad or academy and supplement that if necessary
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Fri May 07, 2021 11:15 am

joe soap wrote:
Friday Knight Lights wrote:
I'm not writing it off but the Super6 won't work for years at best. Those waiting for the super6 to cure all for Scottish rugby will be disappointed. It's a step in the right direction but if young players aren't given professional experience they will never be good professionals. Semi pro/academy props are fine but you have the same problem when the prop with 3 years of semi pro/training experience then up against a knarled fully pro prop with 7 years experience. They'll still need a lot of pro games to be of any sort of standard. Connacht's reserve props are going to be of a much higher standard than anyone they come across in the super 6.



we can go round in circles on this. All young players need game time, no argument there. Connacht props can play in the AIL where we know from when our clubs were in the B&I cup the standard was much higher than the old premiership here. That is what S6 will try to create. Irish teams also play each other in A team games. We don't, and only have 2 teams to play each other - but if S6 is running a better chance of being able to field A teams as we can call up semi pros better than amateurs.

S6 won't go sky high level quickly, not arguing otherwise. But it is the only way I can see to provide better depth. Going along as we are means we never develop depth, we cross fingers that someone else somewhere else will develop it for us, or import it. What you propose is for me just a modification of that, except that younger guys get more exposed - but only one or two a season which might give the odd win but is much more likely to mean you find the prop doesn't make it, results suffer, and we still don't have any depth.

The bottleneck for opportunities is where the focus needs to be strategically, the pro coaches need to get on with picking from who is available in the squad or academy and supplement that if necessary


I agree in time the super 6 is the best way to build depth - I think the A teams would've been better but that ship has sailed.

I do propose one or two get more exposure to profession rugby per year. And you remove the bottleneck by just not signing average foreign players. I get the Kebbles and Schoeman's of this world. Project players are cynical and a lazy development tool but the best chance we have to get quality players. But the Atalifo's, Halanukanuka's Pierreto's are just average players who will never play for Scotland and blocking opportunities for those who might. None of them are the difference between good league position/challenging and not. Both pro clubs have been absolutely jamesmatthew this year and no young prop has played for either.
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Tichtheid on Fri May 07, 2021 3:11 pm

Murray McCallum has played six league games and one Champions Cup game this year. He started in two games, one of which was on the first of November against Scarlets where he was taken off injured after 8 minutes, this was his second appearance of the season.

He next featured towards the end of February against Munster, where he played for 27 minutes as a replacement. He was a replacement for a couple of games after that before starting against Dragons where he played 67 minutes.

I haven't read through the teamsheets for every week of the season to see if he was on the injury list, but I do recall reading his name a few times at least, and the injury list isn't always published anyway.

I hate to say this, because I was very excited by him as a prospect, but Rae hasn't made the improvements I was hoping to see for Glasgow, he has really struggled in the tight.

Rae has made 10 league appearances for Glasgow, starting 3 times.

plus one Rainbow Cup experience, but my Glasgow colleagues tell me they have no recollection of that match ever being played
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Re: Edinburgh squad 2020-21

Postby Friday Knight Lights on Sun May 09, 2021 5:13 pm

James Lang played quite well in Quins Vs Wasps which has to be the game of the season.
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